I opened up my verde´s differential today and was alarmed to find that I do not have a limited slip differential. My diff is similar to the diagram in the manual, but it lacks the clutch plates. I am not sure what to make of this. Everything on my car appears to be totally stock.
Does this mean that my car has had its box swapped with a regular milano or gtv6 box? I didnt drive this car very much before tearing into the trans rebuild, but I thought that the ratios were very tall for the car. This would support the theory that my car has verde ratios without lsd. my car is an 87 so it might have been one of the first verdes on the line or somthing like that.
Has anybody heard of anything like this before?
What should I do now? I could scrap my whole project and start looking for a new box, but I dont really have the bread to buy a platinum box right now. (I have heard that the cost is about $900 usd for a platinum box with worn out synchros and such.)
Am I wasting my money having this box rebuilt, or should I continue?
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
I have not heard of this but it's quite possible some Verdes were built without limited slip. I have seen some really strange things of these cars. The Verde is the only version of these cars that had the 3.55:1 rear axle ratio. This enables the Verde to reach about 50 mph in first gear. I guess you could check the serial numbers of the transaxle. I personally would not worry too much about the lack of limited slip. For drag racing or racetrack use it helps but in day to day driving it doesn't matter that much. Plus that clutch based system is fairly marginal in my opinion.
I am beginning to suspect that one of my verde´s previous owners might have swapped the trans and diff with his gtv6. My car has some sort of frankenstein speedometer which looks to me like a gtv6 speedo mounted in a verde instrument cluster. I guess I shouldn´t have said that my car appears to be stock.
Should have known better than to buy a car from jersey...
At least I have the 3 liter engine...at least I think I do
Where do I go from here? Rebuild whatever it is that I have and be happy with it? Or, do I need to start looking for a different box?
Should have known better than to buy a car from jersey...
At least I have the 3 liter engine...at least I think I do
Where do I go from here? Rebuild whatever it is that I have and be happy with it? Or, do I need to start looking for a different box?
I maybe a minority here, but I really like the 3.55 diff in the Verde, makes 1st gear a lot more usable for the street. There are a few people who put the platinum boxes in the Verdes for the 4.10, so you should be able to find one, I have a spare, but it is unknown condition so I am keeping it as a spare. There was someone who found a Verde in a junk yard in NJ I think, might be worth a visit for the box.
Is there any way that I can figure out what ratios I have now? It is possible thatI have verde ratios already (the car is a verde). It seems that another person (merrill) has found a verde without lsd. I shouldn´t get carried away with paranoia until I actually know somthing about my box. What are the differences between gtv6 and milano boxes? Can I count teeth on any of my gears to determmine my box´s identity?
-
MerrilGordon
- Gold
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:55 pm
- Location: Marysville, WA. USA
Bummer Zambon!
I had the exact problem. I thought that all Verdes had the LSD and was surprised when mine didn't. I had a similar recent thread and the general recomendation was to go with a transaxle that already has one as there are some very challenging issues regarding alignment of the ring & pinion with a different differential installed. Note that mine had the 3.55 R&P so it likely didn't come from another car and certainly not an 82/83 GTV6.
I think Greg is right about these clutch based LSD's, but it's the best option available. You should think about how you plan to use your car before going further. A good frind of mine but in a nice rebuilt Platinum box with extra clutches to get to the 47% grip level. The only problem is the car doubles as his winter car and it's really too squirly for that use. Dragstrips and road courses are a good applications but I'm wondering if Autocrosses and it's associated very tight corners may be too hard on these units causing premature wear. (I've got to look into that one. Any comments people?) A grippier set of tires on wider wheels may be a good alternative.
You should be able to see a 3.0 on the passenger side cylinder head in the back. I used a mechanics mirror and was able to verify that when I purchased the car.
As far as R&P ratios go, I'm with Sam on the 3.55. I like the taller ratios as I just don't spend enough time on the track to justify the 4.10. A lot of people disagree, but a strong engine (like a built 3.0L) with a 4.10R&P pretty much makes 1st gear useless and then you don't have a decent overdrive 5th to make highway crusing comfortable.
Merril
I had the exact problem. I thought that all Verdes had the LSD and was surprised when mine didn't. I had a similar recent thread and the general recomendation was to go with a transaxle that already has one as there are some very challenging issues regarding alignment of the ring & pinion with a different differential installed. Note that mine had the 3.55 R&P so it likely didn't come from another car and certainly not an 82/83 GTV6.
I think Greg is right about these clutch based LSD's, but it's the best option available. You should think about how you plan to use your car before going further. A good frind of mine but in a nice rebuilt Platinum box with extra clutches to get to the 47% grip level. The only problem is the car doubles as his winter car and it's really too squirly for that use. Dragstrips and road courses are a good applications but I'm wondering if Autocrosses and it's associated very tight corners may be too hard on these units causing premature wear. (I've got to look into that one. Any comments people?) A grippier set of tires on wider wheels may be a good alternative.
You should be able to see a 3.0 on the passenger side cylinder head in the back. I used a mechanics mirror and was able to verify that when I purchased the car.
As far as R&P ratios go, I'm with Sam on the 3.55. I like the taller ratios as I just don't spend enough time on the track to justify the 4.10. A lot of people disagree, but a strong engine (like a built 3.0L) with a 4.10R&P pretty much makes 1st gear useless and then you don't have a decent overdrive 5th to make highway crusing comfortable.
Merril
82 GTV6 3.0
-
MerrilGordon
- Gold
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:55 pm
- Location: Marysville, WA. USA
Looks like we're both on the web site Zambon.
It's pretty easy to determine the R&P ratio. Just count the teeth on your ring and the teeth on the pinion and devide the pinion number into the ring number.
A way to tell a Milano box from a GTV box is that the later Milano (and 86GTV6 I think) has extra linkages where the shifter rod exits by the clutch. The GTV6 boxes don't have the extra components.
Other differences are the internal ratios. My 82GTV6 with the 3.42R&P has a wide ratio spread of the internal gears. Not good. There is a big hole between 2nd & 3rd. I don't like that. The Milano boxes move 1st & 2nd closer to 3rd. 3rd through 5th are then the same as GTV6s. Much nicer I believe. That's where the 4.10 people have their favorite Platinum version. The 4.10 multiplication makes for a very nice close ratio spread of gears. It just costs you a usable 1st and minimal overdrive. I'm pretty sure the other GTV6's with a 4.10 are not a favorite choice. That puts 1st gear lower than the old Alfetta 1st gear and it only had a 4-cylinder!
Now if I could just figure out how to install the Alfetta 4th gear and a custom 1.30 3rd in my Verde transaxle I'd be a happy camper!
Merril
It's pretty easy to determine the R&P ratio. Just count the teeth on your ring and the teeth on the pinion and devide the pinion number into the ring number.
A way to tell a Milano box from a GTV box is that the later Milano (and 86GTV6 I think) has extra linkages where the shifter rod exits by the clutch. The GTV6 boxes don't have the extra components.
Other differences are the internal ratios. My 82GTV6 with the 3.42R&P has a wide ratio spread of the internal gears. Not good. There is a big hole between 2nd & 3rd. I don't like that. The Milano boxes move 1st & 2nd closer to 3rd. 3rd through 5th are then the same as GTV6s. Much nicer I believe. That's where the 4.10 people have their favorite Platinum version. The 4.10 multiplication makes for a very nice close ratio spread of gears. It just costs you a usable 1st and minimal overdrive. I'm pretty sure the other GTV6's with a 4.10 are not a favorite choice. That puts 1st gear lower than the old Alfetta 1st gear and it only had a 4-cylinder!
Now if I could just figure out how to install the Alfetta 4th gear and a custom 1.30 3rd in my Verde transaxle I'd be a happy camper!
Merril
82 GTV6 3.0
Tectoteam-I have a US milano verde 3.0l
Thanks for the responses. I counted the teeth and it looks like I have the 3.55 final drive. I also checked for the 3.0 stamp and it is there. I am glad to be over the paranoia.
For a little while I was afraid that I had a frankenstein car.
(Is it possible to swap the head covers and plenum between 2.5 and 3.0 engines? As far as I know these are the only aesthetic differences between the the two.)
I am going to continue with my project while I keep my eyes open for a different gearbox. (Not that I have a problem with mine, I would just like to try different setups at some point).
For now my 3.55 will be just fine. My goal for this car is to use it as a tool to improve my own driving skill and I will be challenged adequately(ok, more than adequately) with the current setup. I just want to focus on getting it back together so that I can drive it
Thanks for the responses. I counted the teeth and it looks like I have the 3.55 final drive. I also checked for the 3.0 stamp and it is there. I am glad to be over the paranoia.
For a little while I was afraid that I had a frankenstein car. (Is it possible to swap the head covers and plenum between 2.5 and 3.0 engines? As far as I know these are the only aesthetic differences between the the two.)
I am going to continue with my project while I keep my eyes open for a different gearbox. (Not that I have a problem with mine, I would just like to try different setups at some point).
For now my 3.55 will be just fine. My goal for this car is to use it as a tool to improve my own driving skill and I will be challenged adequately(ok, more than adequately) with the current setup. I just want to focus on getting it back together so that I can drive it
Zambon,
The fact that you seem to have a transplanted gtv6 speedometer in your verde, makes me think that there is a strong possibility that you have a gtv6 transaxle too.
Maybe the previous owner hit trouble with the gbox and decided to bolt one (cheaper maybe) from a gtv6. Then he changed the speedo in order to match the box.
Tha gear selector shaft could have been changed to match the milano's (and late gtv6) isostatic setup. It would be good to check the type of the speedo sender at your box. That could tell some story. If you have the old type (no amp) then it must be a gtv6 box.
Good luck!
The fact that you seem to have a transplanted gtv6 speedometer in your verde, makes me think that there is a strong possibility that you have a gtv6 transaxle too.
Maybe the previous owner hit trouble with the gbox and decided to bolt one (cheaper maybe) from a gtv6. Then he changed the speedo in order to match the box.
Tha gear selector shaft could have been changed to match the milano's (and late gtv6) isostatic setup. It would be good to check the type of the speedo sender at your box. That could tell some story. If you have the old type (no amp) then it must be a gtv6 box.
Good luck!
Petros. Transaxleista!
Gearbox
Merril, you should talk to Richard Jemison, since that is exactly what he does (mix Alfetta gears into GTV6/Milano boxes). I have a couple of really nice race gearboxes (a 4.10 and a 3.55), with close ratios.
-Al
-Al
Al Mitchell
Reale Motorsports
#82 E Production
Alfa Romeo GTV6
Reale Motorsports
#82 E Production
Alfa Romeo GTV6
-
MerrilGordon
- Gold
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:55 pm
- Location: Marysville, WA. USA
Hippo58- I had been thinking the same thing. I counted the teeth on my final drive ratio and after rough mental division I determined that the ratio is around 3.5. I will take some photos of my box today and perhaps people will be able to tell me about my speedo sensor. I will also take a photo of the ugly speedo setup too.
I am going ahead with the gear lightening and I had my open differential modified. I had planned to take photos, by the shop already had the differential pumpkin back inside of the case when I arrived. Reportedly I now have a modified diff with a similar clutch based system which is locked up at around 40%. FerWong Suspension Systems, a local 4*4 builder, did the work in their machine shop. I am sure that everybody here on the board will be very skeptical of this.
I am lightening only first, second, and third and my gears should be returned on thursday.
I am going ahead with the gear lightening and I had my open differential modified. I had planned to take photos, by the shop already had the differential pumpkin back inside of the case when I arrived. Reportedly I now have a modified diff with a similar clutch based system which is locked up at around 40%. FerWong Suspension Systems, a local 4*4 builder, did the work in their machine shop. I am sure that everybody here on the board will be very skeptical of this
.I am lightening only first, second, and third and my gears should be returned on thursday.