Are the gears themselves (and the dogs), 1st, 2nd, third, from the spider interchangeable with Milano or GTV6 tranny?
Anybody have a list of interchangeble tranny parts??
I think you can still buy OEM gears for the spider......
OK. I am trying to find another resource for GTV6/Milano tranny parts. Now I only have pictures to go by but:
By the photos, it looks like the late eighties/90's Spider tranny synchro hub, bushings, Rings, and sleeves, as well as the engaging gears are almost identical to the GTV6/Milano parts. I don't happen to have a spare Spider tranny to fool with. It would seem that to save money, Alfa would use tranny parts it already had at hand to build the rear tranny.
Does anybody have any gears or other parts they have compared??
By the photos, it looks like the late eighties/90's Spider tranny synchro hub, bushings, Rings, and sleeves, as well as the engaging gears are almost identical to the GTV6/Milano parts. I don't happen to have a spare Spider tranny to fool with. It would seem that to save money, Alfa would use tranny parts it already had at hand to build the rear tranny.
Does anybody have any gears or other parts they have compared??
Well, I guess I am just answering my own posts......
In the search for compatable synchros, sliders, and dogs for Milano/GTV6 tranny:
Anyway, I bought a synchro hub from a spider tranny. It looks just like the GTV6/milano sunchro hub. I will take some measurements of it and post here. I don't have my GTV6 tranny apart right now, but maybe one of you could post some measurements of the GTV6/milano synch hub and we can compare. I'll bet if the synhro hubs are the same diameters, they will fit the sliders, and then the dogs in turn. Just not sure if shaft hole diameters are same.......
This may be a pointless search, but no one replied to my other post about scavenging the above parts from spider trannies..
Besides my wedding anniv., the other highlight of my day: Running a red light and getting a nice tikky! Too bad it wasn't in the GTV6!!
In the search for compatable synchros, sliders, and dogs for Milano/GTV6 tranny:
Anyway, I bought a synchro hub from a spider tranny. It looks just like the GTV6/milano sunchro hub. I will take some measurements of it and post here. I don't have my GTV6 tranny apart right now, but maybe one of you could post some measurements of the GTV6/milano synch hub and we can compare. I'll bet if the synhro hubs are the same diameters, they will fit the sliders, and then the dogs in turn. Just not sure if shaft hole diameters are same.......
This may be a pointless search, but no one replied to my other post about scavenging the above parts from spider trannies..
Besides my wedding anniv., the other highlight of my day: Running a red light and getting a nice tikky! Too bad it wasn't in the GTV6!!
Sorry for your "good day".
Don't think people don't appreciate info like this. Here by us it means you could use 116 synchros in the 105 trannies. Guess which we have more of.
A couple of points about the box:
- If the gears are worn, most likely the entire box is shot. Ring and pinion often are the first to go.
- The dogs wear if the box is driven with too bad synchros. Swap them in time and the dogs will stay OK.
- The synchros wear mainly in the 2nd and 3rd gear. What I just did (again) overhauling my box was taking the 5th synchro and swapping with 2nd. Then there's also the possibility to turn them around.
Hope this helps someone.
Don't think people don't appreciate info like this. Here by us it means you could use 116 synchros in the 105 trannies. Guess which we have more of.
A couple of points about the box:
- If the gears are worn, most likely the entire box is shot. Ring and pinion often are the first to go.
- The dogs wear if the box is driven with too bad synchros. Swap them in time and the dogs will stay OK.
- The synchros wear mainly in the 2nd and 3rd gear. What I just did (again) overhauling my box was taking the 5th synchro and swapping with 2nd. Then there's also the possibility to turn them around.
Hope this helps someone.
Thanks, Micke!
As a cost saving measure, I figured that the synchro assembly was similar in other models, but that obviously the actual gears are dfferent.
That's good for you guys with the 105's. I am more interested in the synchro mechanisms, especially the dog gears, from the series 2 or 3 Spider trannies. Maybe Alfa did the same with those trannies, and there are many more Spiders than GTV6's or 105's.
As a cost saving measure, I figured that the synchro assembly was similar in other models, but that obviously the actual gears are dfferent.
That's good for you guys with the 105's. I am more interested in the synchro mechanisms, especially the dog gears, from the series 2 or 3 Spider trannies. Maybe Alfa did the same with those trannies, and there are many more Spiders than GTV6's or 105's.
I was over on AlfaBB and a new thread started regarding gears in the tranny section. I borrowed this from 'Ken' and 'Steve'(hope they don't mind) :
'Ken':
"Any will exchange physically to any gear, but 1st gear Dog Tooth gear (Synchro Hub) has an additional machined knotch in it. Maybe a first huub could be used at other locations but others not at first without modification. Look for good hubs at 4th and 5th. This is usually the case and this swap is often done if you have the tools to press off the hubs from the gears. Search for other threads on he BB."
And this is borrowed from Steve of AlfaBB:
"What Ken is saying is yes you can swap the dog gears with the exception that only a first dog gear can be used on first due to having two knotches. And yes there is no problem swapping the sleeves."
So:
This makes sense because all the dog gears have to fit the sliders, and the sliders are all the same. So at least within a GTV6/milano tranny, parts are for the most part interchangeable. The dog gear outer diameters are all the same to fit the slider. I am pretty sure that to ease manufacturing, the inner diameters and dental castings are similar as well! The four main parts in a synchro mechanism:
1) slider (slides to engage one of a gear set)....all the same and still available
2) Dog gear (the gear pressed on to the larger respective gear).....all the same except first. Not too worried as first never grinds, and I don't usually do a hard downshift into first!
3) synchro hub(the thing with three 'T' shaped arms)....all the same except first maybe?? still available(at least for the Spider!)
4) synchro ring(looks like a ring, I think this is the friction part to slow the spinning gears)....all the same, cheap and still available
little parts, your on your own as I have not checked them. Of course, don't take my word on the above. It has been compiled from many authors.
As far as gear lightening, thoughts vary. Some say they notice a benefit, others none. I figure if I can remove any of the rotating mass, it will make some difference. And that may mean a few thousand extra miles in the long run. I plan to have gears lightened by performatek, but I will probably remove them myself. Also plan to lighten gears on both shafts since even though they are not always engaged, the interlocked shaft sets are always both spinning. My only concern is a change in gear hardness after machining, but most of the removed metal looks like it will be in a region of less stress.
As far as pinion spacing, I will check the spacer for wear and go from there. I will at least try to rebuild this tranny myself the first time. I printed up the manual off Cardisc and it seems fairly straight forward. If I screw it up, I'll be looking for another low mile milano/GTV6!
Now all I have to do is find out if Spider synchros are the same as well...anybody know????
'Ken':
"Any will exchange physically to any gear, but 1st gear Dog Tooth gear (Synchro Hub) has an additional machined knotch in it. Maybe a first huub could be used at other locations but others not at first without modification. Look for good hubs at 4th and 5th. This is usually the case and this swap is often done if you have the tools to press off the hubs from the gears. Search for other threads on he BB."
And this is borrowed from Steve of AlfaBB:
"What Ken is saying is yes you can swap the dog gears with the exception that only a first dog gear can be used on first due to having two knotches. And yes there is no problem swapping the sleeves."
So:
This makes sense because all the dog gears have to fit the sliders, and the sliders are all the same. So at least within a GTV6/milano tranny, parts are for the most part interchangeable. The dog gear outer diameters are all the same to fit the slider. I am pretty sure that to ease manufacturing, the inner diameters and dental castings are similar as well! The four main parts in a synchro mechanism:
1) slider (slides to engage one of a gear set)....all the same and still available
2) Dog gear (the gear pressed on to the larger respective gear).....all the same except first. Not too worried as first never grinds, and I don't usually do a hard downshift into first!
3) synchro hub(the thing with three 'T' shaped arms)....all the same except first maybe?? still available(at least for the Spider!)
4) synchro ring(looks like a ring, I think this is the friction part to slow the spinning gears)....all the same, cheap and still available
little parts, your on your own as I have not checked them. Of course, don't take my word on the above. It has been compiled from many authors.
As far as gear lightening, thoughts vary. Some say they notice a benefit, others none. I figure if I can remove any of the rotating mass, it will make some difference. And that may mean a few thousand extra miles in the long run. I plan to have gears lightened by performatek, but I will probably remove them myself. Also plan to lighten gears on both shafts since even though they are not always engaged, the interlocked shaft sets are always both spinning. My only concern is a change in gear hardness after machining, but most of the removed metal looks like it will be in a region of less stress.
As far as pinion spacing, I will check the spacer for wear and go from there. I will at least try to rebuild this tranny myself the first time. I printed up the manual off Cardisc and it seems fairly straight forward. If I screw it up, I'll be looking for another low mile milano/GTV6!
Now all I have to do is find out if Spider synchros are the same as well...anybody know????
Spider and V6 synchro 'dog teeth' are different. The V6 ones have a larger internal diameter (where it is pressed onto the gear).
The sychro rings and the sliders are the same. That's it.
The late v6's and Milanos have an improved 1st gear synchro design for improved shifting into 1st gear (You would probably notice this going from neutral to 1st more than anything). They are specific to maybe late 85 on cars. You can use 2,3,4,5 synchro 'dogs' on 1st fine, I have done it several times (spiders or V6's/Milanos). I believe 1st has one stop band inside because you can not 'upshift' into 1st, you can only 'downshift' into 1st.
The pinion mesh is set by the spacers the gears 'ride' on, not the gears themselves.
I generally have to use at least 1 gearbox (for parts) to do a really nice rebuild. Sometimes you spend the time to disassemble a gearbox and it is all junk inside. Then you look for another...
The sychro rings and the sliders are the same. That's it.
The late v6's and Milanos have an improved 1st gear synchro design for improved shifting into 1st gear (You would probably notice this going from neutral to 1st more than anything). They are specific to maybe late 85 on cars. You can use 2,3,4,5 synchro 'dogs' on 1st fine, I have done it several times (spiders or V6's/Milanos). I believe 1st has one stop band inside because you can not 'upshift' into 1st, you can only 'downshift' into 1st.
The pinion mesh is set by the spacers the gears 'ride' on, not the gears themselves.
I generally have to use at least 1 gearbox (for parts) to do a really nice rebuild. Sometimes you spend the time to disassemble a gearbox and it is all junk inside. Then you look for another...