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ChrisS
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Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by ChrisS »

Given a couple of you chaps have asked, I'll start this topic on my current project.

To save sending you off to the other threads, a quick intro to it.

Lancia Stratos copy. It's a UK kit car, originally a Litton, then CAE, now Napiersport Corse. It has strut rear suspension, wishbone front. Chassis is custom, some suspension parts are Lancia, some are Fiat, most are custom. Original engine when I built it was a stock 2l Lancia twin cam from a Monte Carlo, with a Beta gearbox.

Always intended it to be Alfa V6 power, so not long after getting it road legal, I put in a stock 12V 164 motor and gearbox. Sadly, this soon developed a tick on load and soon after a very bad case of smoking. I'd done nothing to the engine other than take it out of the dead 164 it came in and give it a clean/coat of paint, so I can't be blamed for that one!

Next step was to rebuild the engine I'd originally wanted to put in it. I wanted to do a basic stock rebuild, as I always had in mind to try a wee bit of boost on it. Sadly, at the time I was doing the build, I could only get S pistons, and the cams were FUBAR so I ended up with a pair of C&B 'mild' Cams. I ran it in using stock Motronic then installed an aftermarket management system (Emerald M3D). At the first mapping session, it made 198bhp/208ftlb at the flywheel. MUCH later on, I found out the rear cam was 1 tooth out so realistically, I'd expect it to do a little better than this now. It turned out the marks on the cam caps were wrong. The camwheel marks were OK though...but I trusted the cam caps. Idiot! Now I don't trust anything - I dial them in.

Ran the car in this form for a while but started work on a supercharger installation. Unfortunately, I'd already gone a very long way down a particular path before I 'discovered' Greg, so he's been doing a bit of a rearguard action trying to stop me making too many more mistakes.

First effort at supercharging wasn't great. 10:1 CR, cams with too much overlap and a timing error, pretty much totally knackered M90 blower. It made 5psi, 1bhp less than aspirated (but more torque). Next step was to spin the blower faster which helped - it made 8psi and felt stronger as you'd expect, but then it popped a head gasket. Pretty sure this was nothing more sinister than a cheap crappy gasket but I decided at this point to give up on supercharging this engine so fixed the gasket and returned it to aspirated.

Second effort is almost ready to prove it's worth. This is much more to Greg's formula. A set of his 8.8:1 Venolia pistons, a pair of cams from Richard J, his design, based on spec and my intended use for the car, another M90 blower, this time rebuilt and ported to supposedly make more boost/flow better/be more efficient. (I say supposedly, as I had a very bad experience with the company getting the thing sent to me in the first place, and then finding that it leaked oil when it arrived due to sloppy assembly/preparation. If it turns out it works well, then fair enough, I'll live with the agro). I've also done some valve/seat work based on advice from Richard J. Crank is stock, although I used main bearing shells from the NORD engine as they are slightly tighter and 3mm wider than the V6 ones (and cheaper). I had the engine balanced by Vibration Free here in the UK. They do it as an assembly of the rotating/reciprocating parts, having matched pistons and rods. While I was there, I had them balance it with both the stock 3l flywheel and one from a 155 V6, which is a lot lighter. Rods are stock too, as I don't intend revving it that hard, but realistically, I suspect it'll run out of puff before revs become limiting anyway. I know stock rods are good for more torque than mine will make - a mate had a twin turbo 12V that made over 400lbft on stock rods.

Induction setup is stock 164 TB grafted to the M90, a 40mm bike TB as a blower bypass, actuated by a vacuum capsule, the cooler core from a Jaguar XKR grafted into a 164 plenum, then stock runners into the heads with WI nozzles in each runner. The exhaust was stock cast manifolds into a somewhat small and very noisy 'silencer'. Latest effort is a pair of 24V 164 manifolds with 12V flanges fitted, into 2" secondaries and a pair of 2 1/2" bore cans, 6" diameter and 24" long - roughly 85% more volume than the old system. Depending on which figures you use, this shouldn't be restrictive up until about 400bhp or so, but time will tell. It's got to be better than the old system though.

OK, enough waffle, some random photos for now. Questions and ideas always welcome.
Attachments
The day it blew it's gasket....phot shoot for a UK car mag. Oops.
The day it blew it's gasket....phot shoot for a UK car mag. Oops.
RearRig small.JPG (56.09 KiB) Viewed 11976 times
Hard to make out from this shot....Behr cooler core grafted into 164 plenum.
Hard to make out from this shot....Behr cooler core grafted into 164 plenum.
cooler2.JPG (54.05 KiB) Viewed 11778 times
Complete working installation. Water/meth injection not actually used in anger...a massive 5psi really didn't warrant it.....may well be needing it this time round though. Either that, or I spin the blower quick enough until it is needed.....
Complete working installation. Water/meth injection not actually used in anger...a massive 5psi really didn't warrant it.....may well be needing it this time round though. Either that, or I spin the blower quick enough until it is needed.....
blower 2 web.jpg (84.51 KiB) Viewed 11972 times
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by Zamani »

nice, did the exhaust manifold work out for you? If not I have a pair of SZ ones which I may sell.
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by SydneyJules »

V Nice Chris- what wheels have you got on it?

I really like the lime green- so 70s!!! Any more piccies?

Is the Napiersport kit a better one than the Hawk?

Would you do this again, given the opportunity?

Driven it in anger? Does it bite?

Hard to get it together? I mean, no welding or stuff like that to worry about?

Damn I love these cars!
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by la_strega_nera »

Been waiting for one of you forced induction Stratos Nutters to start playing over here after seeing a couple of your posts on the BB.
ChrisS wrote: Latest effort is a pair of 24V 164 manifolds with 12V flanges fitted,
Hah, Daniel and I have been talking about doing this with the spare set of 12V laser cut flanges he has and his leftover 24v manifolds, the aim being to slot them into my 164QV... Cleared the alternator ok? I'm picking the bits up this weekend, not looking forward to trying to do the rear bank!

The 155 flywheel - is it a straight swap into a 164QV/S gearbox/clutch? Roughly how much lighter?
1966 GTV
1982 Suzuki "Bathurst" Katana
1995 Cagiva Mito (race kitted 250 powered)
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by ChrisS »

Oooh, questions :)

The 24V manifold trick worked out really well. They clear all the accessories (alternator, A/C compressor, starter) no problem and I was able to bring the output flanges to a place that suited me better as well (tighter to the block than normal). By re-using the small pillars I was also able to retain the 24V heat shield on the front bank, which is good news for me with the mid-engine layout. I also wrapped both manifolds down to the flange.

I opened out the ports in the heads a wee bit, then used some short lengths of 1 1/2" pipe to transition from the flanges to the larger bore 24V pipework. It's given me a small anti-reversion step with no restrictions...so should work well.

Wheels are 'Image' Billet 5 pattern 3-piece and are a PITA to clean! The comedy offset on the rears hasn't given me any problems so far, although no doubt it gives the bearings a harder life. I didn't want 12" wide rims so didn't have much choice.

155 V6 flywheel bolts straight on, it's roughly 4mm thinner (IIRC) but I can't recall how much lighter now, possibly 2-3Kg?, significant anyway. I did measure and weigh everything but don't have the figures to hand here. I'll try and dig them out. Balance was quite close, but with the 155 FW, there is a 'gotcha' in that the balance pad is on the clutch face, so if you have it skimmed, it will change the balance factor. I had both flywheels balanced to the assembly as I mentioned, just in case I need to revert to the stock one for any reason. Another potential area for problems would be the flywheel bolts fouling the clutch friction plate. It's pretty tight with the 155 FW so it would need to be checked before final assembly. Mine was OK as I'm using a Performatek 6 button plate which has almost no projection out the back. A stock plate would be tighter. You may need to trim the bolt heads or contemplate not using the hard steel washer plate.

Using this setup in a 164 would work fine I think - I had problems with the clutch lever hitting the gear linkage because it comes out the front of the box in my setup of course. I'm still trying to resolve this one. I managed to break the Helix clutch release bearing while trying to move the lever round 1 spline (carelessness), then I got impatient waiting for the replacement to arrive so put in a Valeo item....which doesn't operate the clutch! Arrgh. New Helix item arrived yesterday so I plan to pull the box again tomorrow.

Napiersport better than Hawk?. Not going there!! I'll say the the Hawk is a good quality kit and the fibreglass is very good. I have no personal experience of the current Napiersport product so will refrain from comment. My own car needed a lot of welding given it was missing big chunks of basic structure, but normally, this wouldn't be needed.

Would I do it again. Good question. If I had the funds available and a half-decent workshop, then yes, I probably would. It's not an easy car to build, but that's mostly due to getting the bodywork fit nice and sorting out all the details. Given most details are optional, you could argue it's down to your chosen spec to a fair degree. Mechanically, they are simple enough.

Does it bite. Oh yes! It's not evil though - just good fun and a bit of a challenge. I wouldn't say I've driven it in anger as my car is pure road use, but it's certainly been sideways and back again on numerous occasions.
Attachments
From the PPC photo shoot. Copyright James Lipman. All the decent phots I have are from this shoot. The car is a right media tart these days - I keep finding pictures of it in the oddest places.
From the PPC photo shoot. Copyright James Lipman. All the decent phots I have are from this shoot. The car is a right media tart these days - I keep finding pictures of it in the oddest places.
_JL31250 small.JPG (124.59 KiB) Viewed 11681 times
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by Lancianut69 »

Chris,

That last pic is stunning mate!! I have a new desktop picture!!! ;o)) One question though - what is that at the front of the car - looks a bit thick for the numberplate, but a bit thin for a spotlight? Can't wait to see the car in the flesh!! Good luck with getting that bearing sorted this weekend - I'll let you know how I get on!

Cheers

Darren
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by Zamani »

Blimey! Nice one m8!
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by SydneyJules »

Beautiful, mate.

Oh well, guess i'll get stuck into the GTV and then figure out a way to make some room for a Strat kit!
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by GarthW »

Chris amazing photos...the first one is a great pic whilst on the move, love it!

Once its all sorted your going to have a wicked ride. :D
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Selling 1985 GTV6.

Ecu and injectors, lightened.....plays music.
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by ChrisS »

Have to say I got some really great photos out of the magazine shoot. It was almost worth the agro the blown head gasket and having to come home on the back of a recovery truck. As I mentioned, all the good ones are copyright James Lipman, but he's given me the OK top put low-res copies up on this sort of forum as long as he gets credit, which is fine by me!

Lump on the lower front right is the numberplate - does look as if it has thickness, but I think that's an illusion

Clutch sorted. My fault really - I should have paid more attention when assembling it TBH. Given I was using mix & match parts, can only blame myself. Anyway, it was due to the centre boss of the friction plate being bigger OD than the ID of the pressure plate fingers and them being very close together (only 6mm clearance)....harder I pressed the pedal, harder I pushed the friction plate against the flywheel. Clearly, the first time I tried it when the linkage fouled, it was effectively limiting travel to exactly the right point for it to work. I could have solved it by limiting pedal travel had I realised...but I don't like the idea of the parts being able to interfere like that, so for now, I put a stock Valeo plate in with the Helix HD cover plate. I'll get the 6 puck friction plate turned down so it clears and think about fitting it if it's needed.

Just need the snow to melt now.....
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Chilly.....must be nuts.
Chilly.....must be nuts.
snow joke.JPG (90.36 KiB) Viewed 11414 times
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by ChrisS »

SydneyJules wrote:Beautiful, mate.

Oh well, guess i'll get stuck into the GTV and then figure out a way to make some room for a Strat kit!

Go on...get busy. You know it makes (no) sense!
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by ChrisS »

GarthW wrote:Chris amazing photos...the first one is a great pic whilst on the move, love it!

Once its all sorted your going to have a wicked ride. :D
A very talented snapper indeed. He does some very high-profile jobs as well as the more modest petrol-head publications.

A group of us from the Stratos Enthusiasts Club also did an Autoitalia photo shoot not long after this one. Again, some brilliant photos. Plenty to be found via this link. Nice thing about that particular day was I got to drive a couple of the other guys cars, as well as my own, on track.

And we saw (and heard!) a pair of Mclaren SLRs being tested.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelwar ... 385283581/
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by Lancianut69 »

Wow Chris, now that's what I call dedication! Glad you got it temporarily sorted - roll on the thaw and road testing!! ;o))

Cheers

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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by ChrisS »

Minor update - managed to get the car out on the road yesterday to bed the rings. Feels strong and revs like a good 'un. Many thanks to Greg for his help and advice...and those nice Venolia pistons, and to Richard J for the custom cams. Off-boost performance is excellent - I'm hard put to say it feels much different to the previous motor TBH.

Need to put a few miles on it now, then do the re-torque, service and valve clearances and the final step for now, bolt the blower and assorted gubbins on top and see how much boost it makes. Can't wait. Once I know the boost, I can then see about another mapping session.

More anon......
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Re: Supercharged 12V/Stratos copy/engine tech type stuff

Post by MR2 Zig »

How can you work on that like that???? There's no crack showing???? You can't possibly work on an Alfa without crack!!!! :shock:






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