And they meet emission.
The M variants are fantastic engines. A friend of mine took his M5 head to get it ported and the guy at the shop sent him back home "nothing I can do here.."
And they meet emission.
And they meet emission.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
yeah, i think i know it... EFi windsor + powerglide.Vertikar wrote:Reminds me of the 1979 GTV i saw at the Easternats a few weeks ago here in melb, had a big chev v8 in it....said to my mates "they destroyed it"
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~joeyamin/alfettav81.jpg
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~joeyamin/alfettav82.jpg
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~joeyamin/alfettav83.jpg
at the time when i had my PMS/stroke over it, someone pointed out that this was ofcourse a purpose built dragster, with a restored body that may well have otherwise been scrapped... anything i s'pose that raises awareness of the ol' alfas is good, and it did have a purpose... this japper v8 monstrosity doesn't.
1) bimmer? oh man.. i'm sure its technically a good choice.. but what a way to stick it up alfa... with perhaps their biggest rival.. wtg baz !Barry wrote:I have been playing with the idea of a 4.4l BMW v8 in my Giulietta for a while now.Haltech e11 with a custom intake........
Would you guys fit a 3.0l montreal motor in to your Alfa??
Barry
2) montreal? why not... as MD said, hybrid alfas are fine.. with alfa bits... besides as enzo has pointed out, alfa did it themselves...
one of my wet dreams is one of those steel bumpered alfetta gtvs with the monty engine... i think those retained the rear transaxle, but had a front mounted clutch... can't remember.. released in the german market i think... ahh, damn - getting old... memory is shot.
nice cars... alfetta gt....alfa v8... quad carbies... drool.
edit: actually it could have been one of the german/italian tuning houses that did that... still, it existed in history and has merit in its symbolism as it does in its performance.
kinda like how ppl like to fake 105 GTAs... nuthin wrong with that IMO... others will die as it buggers a perfectly good 105 and isn't "correct", but there u go.
Joey,Its not intensional-Its just that when you pull up next to an e46 m3 and you just know you dont stant a snowballs hope in hell of taking him on.......
Z,I can buy a 4.4l BMW engine for 18000 Rand whereas the 3.8 Alfa costs me 40000 Rand to build.The bimmer comes complete with engine management,alternator and starter motor.Its a good choice.......
Not all is doom and gloom-something to cheer you all up.
Z,I can buy a 4.4l BMW engine for 18000 Rand whereas the 3.8 Alfa costs me 40000 Rand to build.The bimmer comes complete with engine management,alternator and starter motor.Its a good choice.......
Not all is doom and gloom-something to cheer you all up.
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
Hey, Barry and Co., you're opening a whole new can of worms here (worms Barry?)...I'm sure everyone knows AR engines are underpowered dogs and there is plenty Detroit (not just BMW) metal to replace them with. There are beautiful aluminum V8's with CHEAP performance parts that will live forever and make gobs of power. Its all a matter of whether you like Frankenstein cars or not. Dedicated Alfa freaks stick with the mother firm. Practical dudes wouldn't think twice about stuffing an M3 (stock 350hp and as Mats says, dead stock reliability, no snails, nothing!!) in a gtv or 75, but we all got our inhibitions. I KNOW we all secretly envy those gd Beemers! The best AR could do is a 3,2 with 250hp and...78hp/liter!! Big f deal AND fwd!!! All wrong say you??? We've been through this discussion before. Japs and Germans make great motors, like it or not and don't give me any crap about 'Ferrari kicks ass' 'cause its not in the same class sector as the S2000 or M3. Yeah, AR's have soul and character....cheap excuses for NO power. I can fully understand Barry's feeling, sitting next to an M3 at the stoplight ...We do what we do with our cars and we'd better be aware of our automotive limitations. We can spend all kinds of $$$ getting bigger AR cubes and power,knowing full well its all going down the drain come selling time, while the M3 dude is always comfortable, not having to worry about resale values!
My point is, there's no sense drooling over other cars/engines, we're a bunch of car nuts with varying interests, but we must keep things into perspective....as Inspector Harry Callaghan said a long time ago..."a man's got to know his limitations" (then he shot the flucker!)
Granted, a Monty V8 in a gtv is a 'correct' move, albeit a more expensive one than a V6 3liter leading to same power. 22 gtv V8's were made for the German market, but still, a V6 3liter or 4-cam one is a way better solution in my opinion-much more practical!
Now,if you're after the MOST power you can get (for whatever reasons), non AR grafting is a viable (shamefull??) proposition. Its really sad that AR topped out with these engines and is now going the Frankenstein way itself, GM,Holden etc.
Ok, I've had my turn, I'll now sit back and wait, heheh!...
Jim K.
...We do what we do with our cars and we'd better be aware of our automotive limitations. We can spend all kinds of $$$ getting bigger AR cubes and power,knowing full well its all going down the drain come selling time, while the M3 dude is always comfortable, not having to worry about resale values! My point is, there's no sense drooling over other cars/engines, we're a bunch of car nuts with varying interests, but we must keep things into perspective....as Inspector Harry Callaghan said a long time ago..."a man's got to know his limitations" (then he shot the flucker!)
Granted, a Monty V8 in a gtv is a 'correct' move, albeit a more expensive one than a V6 3liter leading to same power. 22 gtv V8's were made for the German market, but still, a V6 3liter or 4-cam one is a way better solution in my opinion-much more practical!
Now,if you're after the MOST power you can get (for whatever reasons), non AR grafting is a viable (shamefull??) proposition. Its really sad that AR topped out with these engines and is now going the Frankenstein way itself, GM,Holden etc.
Ok, I've had my turn, I'll now sit back and wait, heheh!...
Jim K.
Performance
As usual Jim you have the common sense approach. The only thing I can add to this is knowing your limitations as you have said and having brand loyalty being the two key issues for an Alfa devotee.
It does not matter how much power you have because some bastard out there is going to have more than you tomorrow. Eventually unless you go nuclear fission, your gonna get nailed anyway so what is the point? It is the essence of motorsport and the manufacturers do it themselves and play leap frog in the performance stakes all the time. It's what sells cars.
I think the aim should be to be competetive within your own make of cars (Alfa) and experience the fun of dicing with your mates who also drive Alfas. This is a legitimate challenge and one worth pursuing because it's like go faster development the factory itself could have done. If it is done well and professionally, the cost is often recoverable as the whole is still a genuine Alfa and an improved one at that.
I know it can be painfull sometimes not to be at the head of the pack but it is all relavant to which pack you are running with.
I only charge 5 cents per consultation for my philosophy sessions but I am loosing business to Lucy Ball...
It does not matter how much power you have because some bastard out there is going to have more than you tomorrow. Eventually unless you go nuclear fission, your gonna get nailed anyway so what is the point? It is the essence of motorsport and the manufacturers do it themselves and play leap frog in the performance stakes all the time. It's what sells cars.
I think the aim should be to be competetive within your own make of cars (Alfa) and experience the fun of dicing with your mates who also drive Alfas. This is a legitimate challenge and one worth pursuing because it's like go faster development the factory itself could have done. If it is done well and professionally, the cost is often recoverable as the whole is still a genuine Alfa and an improved one at that.
I know it can be painfull sometimes not to be at the head of the pack but it is all relavant to which pack you are running with.
I only charge 5 cents per consultation for my philosophy sessions but I am loosing business to Lucy Ball...
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse
yeah thats the one, couldnt remember what engine it was exactly...does definitely have a purpose....yeah guess it did save an alfa from scrap..joey wrote:yeah, i think i know it... EFi windsor + powerglide.Vertikar wrote:Reminds me of the 1979 GTV i saw at the Easternats a few weeks ago here in melb, had a big chev v8 in it....said to my mates "they destroyed it"
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~joeyamin/alfettav81.jpg
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~joeyamin/alfettav82.jpg
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~joeyamin/alfettav83.jpg
at the time when i had my PMS/stroke over it, someone pointed out that this was ofcourse a purpose built dragster, with a restored body that may well have otherwise been scrapped... anything i s'pose that raises awareness of the ol' alfas is good, and it did have a purpose... this japper v8 monstrosity doesn't.
Guys,we in S.A. have not grown up yet.There is this intense rivalry between Alfa and BMW drivers here.It all started in the early 80`s when the 30l Alfa`s thrashed the then e28 535 bimmers badly.Before that it was the 2.0l sticking it to the 3.0l Ford`s.Lets face it.as much as we ALL wanted Alfa to forge ahead like BMW have over the years, it just has not happened.Alfa seemed destined to remain in catch up mode which this they could not even maintain.The old e30 325 was a way better car here than any Alfa left on our roads.We built 2ol turbos with genuine Autodelta suspension to take on these guys and in the process managed to humiliate even the then king-the e36 m3.While Alfa continued with crappy,by comparrison cars like the front wheel drive 164,bimmers forged ahead with the e34 5series.NO CONTEST!!.
There is just no way we can compare the Alfa heads up with the BMW.And this is very sad,for Alfa in my opinion would have made a much more 'drivers car' than bm would.But this is passion talking-in reality Alfa generally have a shitty reputation world wide whereas Bmw probably have the best of reputations-AND THIS IS WHAT BURNS MY ASS!!So ,a bloody BM v8 in my Giulietta to blow an e46 m3 into the weeds is my perverted way of sticking it to them.
For the un informed , my other car is an e39 5 series...........(mike,how do i make the letters fade away gracefully .......)
There is just no way we can compare the Alfa heads up with the BMW.And this is very sad,for Alfa in my opinion would have made a much more 'drivers car' than bm would.But this is passion talking-in reality Alfa generally have a shitty reputation world wide whereas Bmw probably have the best of reputations-AND THIS IS WHAT BURNS MY ASS!!So ,a bloody BM v8 in my Giulietta to blow an e46 m3 into the weeds is my perverted way of sticking it to them.
For the un informed , my other car is an e39 5 series...........(mike,how do i make the letters fade away gracefully .......)
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
-
junglejustice
- Verde
- Posts: 624
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:19 am
- Location: Granolaville, WA
...my other car is an Alfa and my other car is an Alfa... BUT, my other car is an Alfa, with an Alfa engine in it and yeah, the other car I just purchased is also an Alfa...
My daily driver? You guessed it; an Alfa....
Regina's car - an Alfa
My first car was an Alfetta sedan, then, I became that Beemer guy - 323, 320, 325, 735, 728, 533, then Mustangs with Superchargers, 300 ZXs, Mitsu 300GT VR4 and then I found Infinity - Q45 with Nitrous Oxide and 4.11 300 ZX rear-end(s) - several of them...
On to an S8 Audi and another newer 300ZX and then one day! There she was! Just a lonely old forgotten 164....
And here I am today back in the Alfas - full circle....
My daily driver? You guessed it; an Alfa....
Regina's car - an Alfa
My first car was an Alfetta sedan, then, I became that Beemer guy - 323, 320, 325, 735, 728, 533, then Mustangs with Superchargers, 300 ZXs, Mitsu 300GT VR4 and then I found Infinity - Q45 with Nitrous Oxide and 4.11 300 ZX rear-end(s) - several of them...
On to an S8 Audi and another newer 300ZX and then one day! There she was! Just a lonely old forgotten 164....
And here I am today back in the Alfas - full circle....
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
You summed it all up Barry! Just to expand a little on the technical side of things (I know its boring to a lot of you, but I'll be brief!) an M3 Evo 4-cyl head (about 1989-91) from the 2500cc motor, showed a flow of....178cfm (!!!!!!!!!!) on the Superflow, while my 3liter Q4 head (even with a careful port cleanup job) managed 146cfm. Alfa sure knows how to do it, they just keep aiming at the wrong market sector (as far as we're concerned!). The above flow difference can be translated to about 14hp per cylinder! 
Jim K.
Jim K.
Flow rates
Jim-
Are the valve sizes similar between the M3 and Alfa heads?
Also, can anybody talk to me about flow differences when you increase valve diameters by 1mm? The (formerly) commonly available "big valves" for the 2.5L motor were 1mm oversize.
Anybody know where to find them now?
-Al
Are the valve sizes similar between the M3 and Alfa heads?
Also, can anybody talk to me about flow differences when you increase valve diameters by 1mm? The (formerly) commonly available "big valves" for the 2.5L motor were 1mm oversize.
Anybody know where to find them now?
-Al
Al Mitchell
Reale Motorsports
#82 E Production
Alfa Romeo GTV6
Reale Motorsports
#82 E Production
Alfa Romeo GTV6
John,some nice cars there.....Mitsu vr4 3000 is fun,had one of those with HKS goodies-400 hp engine.A bit overweight though......The Audi a8 also fantastic car-did not own one though.....
If they were available here AT A DECENT price,A Skyline r34 with all the bells and whistles would suite me just fine......In the mean time(here I need those fading letters again...) a bimmer v8 ....
If they were available here AT A DECENT price,A Skyline r34 with all the bells and whistles would suite me just fine......In the mean time(here I need those fading letters again...) a bimmer v8 ....
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
lube yourself up jim....JimGreek wrote:Hey, Barry and Co., you're opening a whole new can of worms here (worms Barry?)...I'm sure everyone knows AR engines are underpowered dogs and there is plenty Detroit (not just BMW) metal to replace them with.
......
Granted, a Monty V8 in a gtv is a 'correct' move, albeit a more expensive one than a V6 3liter leading to same power. 22 gtv V8's were made for the German market, but still, a V6 3liter or 4-cam one is a way better solution in my opinion-much more practical!
I'll now sit back and wait, heheh!...
Jim K.
look, rest assured i respect you man, but on this occasion i'm a have to flip you the bird !
u wanna drag car, stick twin turbos into a stang 351 and watch the world in slo-mo. Look mate, you've slowed all your problems
1) fast
2) 'cheap' yank power
3) financially more secure project
4) well supported by the aftermarket
i understand your points about improving the breed jim and baz, but hows about using CLASSIC ol' gtvs and v6s in their original scope as gt cars... as for dragging cars at the lights, baz hit it on the head. Skyline GTR.
fecking swedish, always capitulates to the germans... have some balls man ! some big aussie balls !Mats wrote:I concur.
(crosses the line and walks over to Jim)
now people, i ask you, what is left of an alfa without its engine, some may say heart and soul? sure there is merit in other aspects of the car, but if you want to drop in a rb26dett for power, why not just buy yourself a skyline?, likewise, if you want yank power, stick to yank cars... why rape an innocent alfa and tear it from its sense of identity? what do you really achieve?
some will mask it as wanting to improve and tinker with the car, i call it a severe misunderstand of what alfa WAS. yes i personally think the new cars are rubbish and not worthy of teh alfa badge, but that to me, increases the appeal and charm of the older cars...
JMO... i aint angry at ya jim and baz, i still want to make sweet swett love to you both. at the same time preferably.
Wow!!Barry, some Aussie dude wants to fertilize our caboose, and do both of us at the same time! Must be a strangely endowed man!! Geez, us Alfa guys are known to be sexually agressive (!!!) but Joey, not THIS much!!! (I thought us Greeks had a bad reputation, but now I'm relieved!). You is da King!!
Seriously,Joey, I never advocated the Alfa dragster concept. All I'm saying is just the opposite, that Alfas aren't cut out for this sport!
A few drag starts with a powerful gtv/75 and you have no donuts, tranny, CV's, you name it. Using these cars for this kind of duty is a damn pity, AFAIC.
Myself, I believe in carrying out mods that the factory probably would,if the model would live on. For example, its entirely possible that the 75 would inherit the 24v engine, had the model continued to '94-95. IMO, mods should be commensurate with the character of the car and balanced as a whole-ie it doesn't make sense to have 330mm discs with 8-pot calipers on a 1600cc 75!! AND, a point which usually creates a lot of hostility with many people: Can you honestly drive what you build?? Why does everyone object to handing a loaded gun to a kid? Is there a possible similarity here?
Maybe we don't have the fastest cars, but we sure have fun trying to drive them as fast as they can be driven. Last year, I let an historics driver (105 Bertone, 2003 champ)here drive my car and the man beat my time by 0,5sec within 10 laps! So, it ain't power I'm after but more SKILL!!!!!! And that, you can't buy! Without it, and lots of power, you can really make a spectacle of yourself! This again, is my opinion and of course is not imposing on anyone.
Ok, on to other things, Reale, the M3 2500 Evo has 37mm intake/32mm exhaust valves. For racing, they up to 38,5/32,5mm.
Its difficult to report flow differences with 1mm larger valves, as when you se a larger valve, you change porting dimensions. I'll give you an interesting comparison though, a 2liter head with 46mm valve and good porting has 115cfm and the same valve with almost max porting has 120cfm. Keepin mind that the std head has a 44mm valve and 89cfm.
Jim K.
Seriously,Joey, I never advocated the Alfa dragster concept. All I'm saying is just the opposite, that Alfas aren't cut out for this sport!
A few drag starts with a powerful gtv/75 and you have no donuts, tranny, CV's, you name it. Using these cars for this kind of duty is a damn pity, AFAIC.
Myself, I believe in carrying out mods that the factory probably would,if the model would live on. For example, its entirely possible that the 75 would inherit the 24v engine, had the model continued to '94-95. IMO, mods should be commensurate with the character of the car and balanced as a whole-ie it doesn't make sense to have 330mm discs with 8-pot calipers on a 1600cc 75!! AND, a point which usually creates a lot of hostility with many people: Can you honestly drive what you build?? Why does everyone object to handing a loaded gun to a kid? Is there a possible similarity here?
Maybe we don't have the fastest cars, but we sure have fun trying to drive them as fast as they can be driven. Last year, I let an historics driver (105 Bertone, 2003 champ)here drive my car and the man beat my time by 0,5sec within 10 laps! So, it ain't power I'm after but more SKILL!!!!!! And that, you can't buy! Without it, and lots of power, you can really make a spectacle of yourself! This again, is my opinion and of course is not imposing on anyone.
Ok, on to other things, Reale, the M3 2500 Evo has 37mm intake/32mm exhaust valves. For racing, they up to 38,5/32,5mm.
Its difficult to report flow differences with 1mm larger valves, as when you se a larger valve, you change porting dimensions. I'll give you an interesting comparison though, a 2liter head with 46mm valve and good porting has 115cfm and the same valve with almost max porting has 120cfm. Keepin mind that the std head has a 44mm valve and 89cfm.
Jim K.