andrew i know how u feel mate i been reading gregs crap for too long now. yes it is time to move on regarding this issue isnt it. i mean there is only one real way to prove me wrong and thats by either producing dyno charts or lasting the distance. ie: like our cars have. secondly i guess u guys really cant take critiscm grace fully as u urself just stated that u dont wana hear it. one more thing i just wonder is why it takes so long to produce a dyno run. now im not sure bout anyone else but when i do mods to my vars let alone major ones like these i run to c the improvements. i cant even sleep cause thats all i think about. and now heres greg telling me he didnt have time. i say BS. as if you wouldnt make the time.
Patzo,
Let me try to explain the advantages of Greg's kit, an average mechanic with basic tools can send $3,300 to Greg and have a box arrive in a few weeks, take the contents of that box, spend a few hours of quality time in the garage and walk away with an extra 60-80 hp. Nowhere else in the world can spend that kind of time and money and get those kind of results (don't mention NOS). That is the beauty of his kit, yes you can spend more time and more money and get better results, no arugement there, but for the price and ease of installation, Greg kit has no equal (at this time).
I understand what you are saying about the Dyno results, but absent having two engine run on an engine dyno in the same place at the same time, things just won't be comparable. Even if you compare rear wheel horsepower on similar cars at different locations, they won't be that comparible due to different losses in transmissions and other losses through the drive train plus varrying weather and altitude. Greg has given his calculation on how he reached his flywheel hp, so with a little math you can back into his rwhp.
My friends and I posted our dyno runs on this site, and what is funny is I rebuilt my engine did the most mods to my engine and ended up with the least HP, but I was also the only one who was running cats, all three cars were pretty close, but the Alfa with the most miles (~150k) put down more power than the ~50k Alfa and my ~15k rebuilt motor.
If you really believe that Greg's kit and so bad and want to protect us all from his lies and deception, spend $3,300, install on your car, take it to a dyno, run it, and then post the results, but make sure you have the install documented and the dyno run documented so we know you are not trying to pull on over on us...
Let me try to explain the advantages of Greg's kit, an average mechanic with basic tools can send $3,300 to Greg and have a box arrive in a few weeks, take the contents of that box, spend a few hours of quality time in the garage and walk away with an extra 60-80 hp. Nowhere else in the world can spend that kind of time and money and get those kind of results (don't mention NOS). That is the beauty of his kit, yes you can spend more time and more money and get better results, no arugement there, but for the price and ease of installation, Greg kit has no equal (at this time).
I understand what you are saying about the Dyno results, but absent having two engine run on an engine dyno in the same place at the same time, things just won't be comparable. Even if you compare rear wheel horsepower on similar cars at different locations, they won't be that comparible due to different losses in transmissions and other losses through the drive train plus varrying weather and altitude. Greg has given his calculation on how he reached his flywheel hp, so with a little math you can back into his rwhp.
My friends and I posted our dyno runs on this site, and what is funny is I rebuilt my engine did the most mods to my engine and ended up with the least HP, but I was also the only one who was running cats, all three cars were pretty close, but the Alfa with the most miles (~150k) put down more power than the ~50k Alfa and my ~15k rebuilt motor.
If you really believe that Greg's kit and so bad and want to protect us all from his lies and deception, spend $3,300, install on your car, take it to a dyno, run it, and then post the results, but make sure you have the install documented and the dyno run documented so we know you are not trying to pull on over on us...
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Well, I was going to try not to respond but since there are specific issues I can address here I will.
First of all I have never seen GTV6GPTT's twin turbo set up. I have tried to see it but there are no pictures of it I can find and the video I saw doesn't show anything. So I certainly have not leveled any criticizm at it specifically. I am sorry if something I said came across that way.
I have very rarely IF EVER criticized anything on either this or the old forum. I have disputed claims a couple times with math and logic. (twice I can think of, the approx 70% power increase on 5 psi claim and the 15-20 hp boost by removing the AFM on a stock 2.5 claim). I don't think I have ever described someone else product as "inferior"
My kit does not have "terrible fuel consumption". Why would it? The supercharger is not engaged when off boost.
I have driven it over 2000 hard miles so far in an effort to try and find problems.
Regarding Bill's race results, I can't help what class the SCCA puts the Milano in nor do I know what they race against in Australia, but I can tell you this. The WRX, Silva and V8 Mustangs are forces to be reconed with at events here in the USA. Plus his time was faster then TWO Z06 Corvettes. That's one of the best performing cars you can buy.
I am sure you are a great guy too. A lot of people good characteristics are lost when posting on the internet. When I come over there I will stop by your shop and buy you a cup of coffee or something. By the way, where in OZ are you?
Nothing would make me happier then for you to market a turbo kit in the same price range. I really mean that, competition improves the breed. If you make a better kit I won't criticize it, I will go back to my shop and try to make improvements.
First of all I have never seen GTV6GPTT's twin turbo set up. I have tried to see it but there are no pictures of it I can find and the video I saw doesn't show anything. So I certainly have not leveled any criticizm at it specifically. I am sorry if something I said came across that way.
I have very rarely IF EVER criticized anything on either this or the old forum. I have disputed claims a couple times with math and logic. (twice I can think of, the approx 70% power increase on 5 psi claim and the 15-20 hp boost by removing the AFM on a stock 2.5 claim). I don't think I have ever described someone else product as "inferior"
My kit does not have "terrible fuel consumption". Why would it? The supercharger is not engaged when off boost.
I have driven it over 2000 hard miles so far in an effort to try and find problems.
Regarding Bill's race results, I can't help what class the SCCA puts the Milano in nor do I know what they race against in Australia, but I can tell you this. The WRX, Silva and V8 Mustangs are forces to be reconed with at events here in the USA. Plus his time was faster then TWO Z06 Corvettes. That's one of the best performing cars you can buy.
I am sure you are a great guy too. A lot of people good characteristics are lost when posting on the internet. When I come over there I will stop by your shop and buy you a cup of coffee or something. By the way, where in OZ are you?
Nothing would make me happier then for you to market a turbo kit in the same price range. I really mean that, competition improves the breed. If you make a better kit I won't criticize it, I will go back to my shop and try to make improvements.
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
OK, for the SECOND TIME, I will fax the dyno results to ANYONE in the U.S. who is one of our customers. I will put in on my site eventually, right now I am on the road and too busy. Is there anyone out there who seriously thinks I am making all this up?
Why didn't I do a dyno run sooner? Simple, I was still making minor changes to the kit up until a few months ago. Most of these chages involved the discharge port and design changes in this area take a lot of time. Plus they have a big effect on performance so any dyno testing without the final discharge port would have been invalid.
The nearest dyno is two hours away and I spend 3 out of four weeks out of town in December and January every year. I didn't want to spend what little family time I get in December running to the Dyno. Anyway, I got it done, who cares when I dynoed it?
I didn't need to dyno it after every change to see the improvements. Why not? Simple, they show up on the boost gauge. For a given drive ratio (that means without changing pulleys) a more efficient system will put out more boost. That means that every time I got more efficiency out of the system to keep the same level of boost I was able to slow down the supercharger by reducing the drive ratio thus reducing the amount of power required to turn it and the heat it produces. I don't need to dyno it to know that's good!
Why didn't I do a dyno run sooner? Simple, I was still making minor changes to the kit up until a few months ago. Most of these chages involved the discharge port and design changes in this area take a lot of time. Plus they have a big effect on performance so any dyno testing without the final discharge port would have been invalid.
The nearest dyno is two hours away and I spend 3 out of four weeks out of town in December and January every year. I didn't want to spend what little family time I get in December running to the Dyno. Anyway, I got it done, who cares when I dynoed it?
I didn't need to dyno it after every change to see the improvements. Why not? Simple, they show up on the boost gauge. For a given drive ratio (that means without changing pulleys) a more efficient system will put out more boost. That means that every time I got more efficiency out of the system to keep the same level of boost I was able to slow down the supercharger by reducing the drive ratio thus reducing the amount of power required to turn it and the heat it produces. I don't need to dyno it to know that's good!
PSYCOLOGLY LESSON:
The Five Stages of Grief
1. Denial - "I cannot see anything in your setup that has been done correctly."
2. Anger - "All these replies show is that you have more friends then me in here!"
3. Bargaining - "These only one real way to prove me wrong and thats by either producing dyno charts or lasting the distance."
4. Depression - "i know how u feel mate i been reading gregs crap for too long now."
5. Acceptance - "...."
Well im not waiting around for Panzo to accept that Greg has produced a mind blowing kit. I suggest not holding your breath either.
Somebody is a wee bit jealous!
Greg, dont worry about patzos rants. The numbers speak for themselves. Congrats on this AMAZING kit!
The Five Stages of Grief
1. Denial - "I cannot see anything in your setup that has been done correctly."
2. Anger - "All these replies show is that you have more friends then me in here!"
3. Bargaining - "These only one real way to prove me wrong and thats by either producing dyno charts or lasting the distance."
4. Depression - "i know how u feel mate i been reading gregs crap for too long now."
5. Acceptance - "...."
Well im not waiting around for Panzo to accept that Greg has produced a mind blowing kit. I suggest not holding your breath either.
Somebody is a wee bit jealous!
Greg, dont worry about patzos rants. The numbers speak for themselves. Congrats on this AMAZING kit!
Jacob Ricciotti
'81 GTV6 3.0
'81 GTV6 Track car
'91 164S daily driver
'81 GTV6 3.0
'81 GTV6 Track car
'91 164S daily driver
hi Greg, i have posted the links to my car many many many times.
you can see all you need to in this movie:
http://www.alfa145.com/upload/gtv6gptt1.avi
all the rest is on the IAC website.
http://www.italianautoclub.com/gtv6gptt.htm
i am making 206 KW or 276HP at the wheels.
which is basically the same set up as you, but twin turbo and completely tuned to make the best of what i have.
let me be very clear i was planing to + supercharge from day 1.
the layout was planed for months to run 6-7 psi with our old l-jet.
as i researched into it, it turned out to be a waste of time to do the work and have 20 year old technology controlling the car and a very raw boost system.
In the last few weeks the sky’s opened up when i started to compare my twin turbo setup to my supercharged setup, there are so many ways turbo excelled over the supercharger. and now from having the car over a year I know it’s the best thing I’ve ever choosen.
I strongly disagree with you statements on your website about turbocharging vs supercharging, but that is your opinion and in time you will find out exactly what I mean.
moral of this story is, don’t cut corners and use the standard ecu, it is limiting the success of a kit with potential. I wouldn’t go and by a 355 Ferrari and convert the highly tuned v8 with EFI to a single carby setup.
How much power and driveability have u just lost from going back to carby???
Basically this is what supercharging and having no control over your tuning is.
Before I did anything on my car, an aftermarket fuel and timing ecu was the first and best mod I ever did.
I can see where patzo’s anger rises from, we have a very serious car scene in Australian since we have some of the best tuners and engine builders in the world.
we are all meant to be helping each other to succussed a final goal.
you can see all you need to in this movie:
http://www.alfa145.com/upload/gtv6gptt1.avi
all the rest is on the IAC website.
http://www.italianautoclub.com/gtv6gptt.htm
i am making 206 KW or 276HP at the wheels.
which is basically the same set up as you, but twin turbo and completely tuned to make the best of what i have.
let me be very clear i was planing to + supercharge from day 1.
the layout was planed for months to run 6-7 psi with our old l-jet.
as i researched into it, it turned out to be a waste of time to do the work and have 20 year old technology controlling the car and a very raw boost system.
In the last few weeks the sky’s opened up when i started to compare my twin turbo setup to my supercharged setup, there are so many ways turbo excelled over the supercharger. and now from having the car over a year I know it’s the best thing I’ve ever choosen.
I strongly disagree with you statements on your website about turbocharging vs supercharging, but that is your opinion and in time you will find out exactly what I mean.
moral of this story is, don’t cut corners and use the standard ecu, it is limiting the success of a kit with potential. I wouldn’t go and by a 355 Ferrari and convert the highly tuned v8 with EFI to a single carby setup.
How much power and driveability have u just lost from going back to carby???
Basically this is what supercharging and having no control over your tuning is.
Before I did anything on my car, an aftermarket fuel and timing ecu was the first and best mod I ever did.
I can see where patzo’s anger rises from, we have a very serious car scene in Australian since we have some of the best tuners and engine builders in the world.
we are all meant to be helping each other to succussed a final goal.
- Attachments
-
- Race Suit
- gtv6gptt.jpg (36.5 KiB) Viewed 8778 times
-
- Street Suit
- iac06.jpg (30 KiB) Viewed 8779 times
This is really starting to bug me...
Why can't you guys accept the fact that this kit builds on the idea that the engine and ancillaries (spelling?) except the Supercharger is bone stock!
This means NO change whatsoever. none.
Please do not compare it with your setup GTV6GTPP, it doesn't apply because you have a completely different design objective.
Saying "moral of this story is, don’t cut corners and use the standard ecu" when this is indeed one of the cornerstones in Gregs kit is in my opinion just silly.
Why can't you guys accept the fact that this kit builds on the idea that the engine and ancillaries (spelling?) except the Supercharger is bone stock!
This means NO change whatsoever. none.
Please do not compare it with your setup GTV6GTPP, it doesn't apply because you have a completely different design objective.
Saying "moral of this story is, don’t cut corners and use the standard ecu" when this is indeed one of the cornerstones in Gregs kit is in my opinion just silly.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
Lets Just keep it simple:
some people PREFER turbocharging
some people PREFER supercharging
where's the point in arguing about?? Mats is also right, it's just a simple bolt on upgrade, thats affordable to many owners who dont want to get too involved with a custom set-up.
Lets face it we all drive (alfa's) and there's very little on the marked that's been developed, is simple, and affordable - fact.
Yes we can all go twin turbo, but everything is custom.... nobody will make the manifolds easily available, intercoolers....you usually have to make your own! the list goes on. Even driveline upgrades are pretty non existant!!
To make a 2.5 push 275hp+, or a 3.0 near 300hp+ nat.aspirated, you gotta spend a sh*t load more than $3299 -fact.
For all we know Greg may offer the kit with an aftermarket ecu in the future...... so instead of putting him down, why not suggest working together to develop some of the affordable ecu kit's you Aussies have!! Try the positive approach.
We all win in the end! think about it.....
some people PREFER turbocharging
some people PREFER supercharging
where's the point in arguing about?? Mats is also right, it's just a simple bolt on upgrade, thats affordable to many owners who dont want to get too involved with a custom set-up.
Lets face it we all drive (alfa's) and there's very little on the marked that's been developed, is simple, and affordable - fact.
Yes we can all go twin turbo, but everything is custom.... nobody will make the manifolds easily available, intercoolers....you usually have to make your own! the list goes on. Even driveline upgrades are pretty non existant!!
To make a 2.5 push 275hp+, or a 3.0 near 300hp+ nat.aspirated, you gotta spend a sh*t load more than $3299 -fact.
For all we know Greg may offer the kit with an aftermarket ecu in the future...... so instead of putting him down, why not suggest working together to develop some of the affordable ecu kit's you Aussies have!! Try the positive approach.
We all win in the end! think about it.....
Andrew b
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Wow, a lot of posts in a short time.
Andrew, That's not really realistic with a M62, of course it depends on some other factors like displacement but for an Alfa V6 with 10 psi an intercooler and 7000 rpm you will need an M90. It's possible to get an M62 up near those numbers but if you do it won't fit under the hood. It's just easier to go with an M90 at that point and more effiecient.
Jacob, I am glad to see all that hard earned money your dad is spending on higher education isn't going to waste.
GTV6GPTT, I think your car is awesome! It's power numbers are very impressive. My only contention is that it's not a valid comparison with my kit since it's a much higher level of cost and complexity. I certainly would not compare it to one of the South African set ups either, they are in a whole different class. Sure my set up uses a 20 year old injection system. That's because everything on the car is 20 years old. The only piece of new technology is the supercharger itself! Don't worry I don't plan to convert any Ferraris F355s to Carbs. I promise. As I have said before if you want to have a level playing field comparison as soon as somebody develops an equivalent Turbo kit we can do it. I truely hope Patzo steps up to the plate and does this.
Mats, exactly! What more can I say.
Andrew, That's not really realistic with a M62, of course it depends on some other factors like displacement but for an Alfa V6 with 10 psi an intercooler and 7000 rpm you will need an M90. It's possible to get an M62 up near those numbers but if you do it won't fit under the hood. It's just easier to go with an M90 at that point and more effiecient.
Jacob, I am glad to see all that hard earned money your dad is spending on higher education isn't going to waste.
GTV6GPTT, I think your car is awesome! It's power numbers are very impressive. My only contention is that it's not a valid comparison with my kit since it's a much higher level of cost and complexity. I certainly would not compare it to one of the South African set ups either, they are in a whole different class. Sure my set up uses a 20 year old injection system. That's because everything on the car is 20 years old. The only piece of new technology is the supercharger itself! Don't worry I don't plan to convert any Ferraris F355s to Carbs. I promise. As I have said before if you want to have a level playing field comparison as soon as somebody develops an equivalent Turbo kit we can do it. I truely hope Patzo steps up to the plate and does this.
Mats, exactly! What more can I say.
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Before any of us build something, we have a set of parameters to work with. Maybe some of you have ...unlimted budget? Or whaterver.
Greg's parameters have always been emphasized as STOCK everything. He doesn't care for Autronic or Haltech or EMS or even Megasquirt. His deisgn parameters require STOCK components.
Let me stress that again, STOCK STOCK STOCK STOCK. Don't bring EMS, Autronic etc into this discussion as far as criticizing his setup.
That may boggle some of you, but I think his target market is mostly for customers in the US, or even others who don't want to spend too much on upgrades.
Those are his parameters to work with. You can't say "don't cut corners" or whatever, he has his design parameters and he has to go by that.
If you want to install other EFIs go right on ahead, I don't think Greg will shoot you.
Greg's parameters have always been emphasized as STOCK everything. He doesn't care for Autronic or Haltech or EMS or even Megasquirt. His deisgn parameters require STOCK components.
Let me stress that again, STOCK STOCK STOCK STOCK. Don't bring EMS, Autronic etc into this discussion as far as criticizing his setup.
That may boggle some of you, but I think his target market is mostly for customers in the US, or even others who don't want to spend too much on upgrades.
Those are his parameters to work with. You can't say "don't cut corners" or whatever, he has his design parameters and he has to go by that.
If you want to install other EFIs go right on ahead, I don't think Greg will shoot you.
"Let me stress that again, STOCK STOCK STOCK STOCK. Don't bring EMS, Autronic etc into this discussion as far as criticizing his setup. "
why supercharger then?
anyway its not my problem, i put in my 2 cents.
i have done upgrades on many old cars that are turbo or charged standard, using VAF meters and shit ignitions. waste of time.
an example
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/5335/intkvaf.htm
if you deside to look into efi im sure its clear im happy to help, i have alot of experience with the ljet and aftermarket. so let know.
why supercharger then?
anyway its not my problem, i put in my 2 cents.
i have done upgrades on many old cars that are turbo or charged standard, using VAF meters and shit ignitions. waste of time.
an example
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/5335/intkvaf.htm
if you deside to look into efi im sure its clear im happy to help, i have alot of experience with the ljet and aftermarket. so let know.
"why supercharger then? "
From what I can see, a key factor to this kit is being off a totally stock and therefore "smog" legal engine with a kit which should be easily put on and off for those times when it needs to be, hah. Plus giving nice power,
I do have a question Im building a new 3.0 12v for my gtv6, i want to stay strictly naturally aspirated, high compression, S cams, mild port and polish, Cat, and Bigger Exhaust, can anyone tell me how far theyve gone and still passing emissions in CA? Could i put bigger valves in, and the previous mods would be okay too? Im not looking for a bunch of upgrading the fuel management system, yada yada, stuff ive never seen done here yet, just the old school mods but want some nice power and be okay on the emission side? thanks
From what I can see, a key factor to this kit is being off a totally stock and therefore "smog" legal engine with a kit which should be easily put on and off for those times when it needs to be, hah. Plus giving nice power,
I do have a question Im building a new 3.0 12v for my gtv6, i want to stay strictly naturally aspirated, high compression, S cams, mild port and polish, Cat, and Bigger Exhaust, can anyone tell me how far theyve gone and still passing emissions in CA? Could i put bigger valves in, and the previous mods would be okay too? Im not looking for a bunch of upgrading the fuel management system, yada yada, stuff ive never seen done here yet, just the old school mods but want some nice power and be okay on the emission side? thanks