ALFAGTV6.COM

[grant]

Jim's car doesn't seem to be rolling too much. Did you get a chance to talk to him about what suspension he is running, Jes?

Z, what did Bernard say the lower RC did for him? I don't have a firm grasp on whether or not it would make enough a differnece to make up for the time and effor of repositioning the pivot.

I'm starting to think roll is a Milano only kind of trait. JohnT posted his race video at Lime Rock with either just 27mm torsion bars and Konis, or the T-bars and the shankle sway bars. I know damn well that I could never keep my car that flat with just those modifications, and I've been using 205-225 street tires! WTF??

[ar4me]

Grant,
I think it'll be hard to guess the perfect setup for your car from pictures, anecdotal information, hearsay, etc... and then mix and match. Put something on there, go drive it, and try to adjust based on what you feel and what you like. That can be time consuming and costly, yes costly. Alternatively, invest in a proven setup (which may be cheaper at the end). You have both Beninca and RSR providing proven setups.

Jim's Alfetta GT is about 500 lbs lighter. Still, I think it rolls more than my car. Not sure why you would conclude it rolls less? Anyway, he runs yellow konis, I believe. Not sure about torsion bars or sway bars.
Jes

[grant]

Hi Jes,

I can tell from the pictures Jim's car is rolling more, but if he's using just Shankle stuff, it seems to be not too bad. 27mm torsion bars is like nothing, especially for a race car.

I do think though, that suspension = suspension. Ron's kit is very high quality, and I think you'll agree that the shocks are SUPERB. Louis of San Jose was telling me that for E46 M3's, one forum member was talking about how his Intrax coilovers were better than anything he'd come across for M3's. Intrax really seems to make a good product.

However, as you might have read, a few people feel that more can be had from the RSR setup. Our cars are very tall and narrow, so we might as well maximize whatever potential we have before going to widebody. By that I mean, fix the roll centers, and if at all possible, custom lower control arms and cambered dedion tubes. Beninca I think has it figured out, but their shocks seem a little soft from what I've seen? Personal preference.

Beninca setup must be around $2000 now? That should be about what RSR will cost me, but I don't get to fiddle with spring rates in case I want to make my car an all out track car.

BTW, did you get much more tire clearance with the body kit?

[Zamani]

Beninca's shock is soft because I set it to max softness. I could set it to max stiffness, but I would like to prevent brain hemorrhage.

[ar4me]

However, as you might have read, a few people feel that more can be had from the RSR setup. Our cars are very tall and narrow, so we might as well maximize whatever potential we have before going to widebody. By that I mean, fix the roll centers, and if at all possible, custom lower control arms and cambered dedion tubes.

Pretty much everything can be improved! There will always be people of different opinions - some say RSR is just a bandaid and some swear by it. I don't think you can do it perfectly at our level as a hobby - cost and/or skill prohibitively for most. I'm sure even the RSR and Beninca stuff have their compromises, but both offer a step in a good direction for most, I believe. Keep in mind that it is always easy to criticize, and some people's ego may fog their glasses.

Jes

[grant]

Jes,

Very well put. I agree that it sounds like I'm just picking away at very competant products with out much real world experience. However, I was sure to point out both group's positives as well as the short list of negatives, so I'm not trying to just take away from the hard work these people put into R&D. The reason I don't want to just run with whatever is out there though because suspension design and tuning is quickly becoming one of my favorite aspects of cars and racing and I find it very gratifying to improve on what is the hot setup. I wish I could read the alfapower.nu website, b/c they all really seem to know what's goign on with transaxles and i think much mroe could be learned.

As far as picking a good setup and running with it though, you might want to consider just modifying the front suspension a bit more, ESPECIALLY since this is a track only car. I don't know what it is about these transaxle cars, but no matter what, they just want to roll! I hope Mats can chime in here a bit and try to explain how his race Alfetta seems to grip and handle so well. Mats seems to be making tremendous amounts of grip on the track!

I mean, with 700lb and 350lb inch springs, a car really shouldn't roll that much right? And you could just try and compensate for the amount of roll by having more initial camber, but then you lose grip when its time to brake. Why not keep developing your race car? Modified spindles cost around $350 if Larry in Northern California makes them for you ( I think Rich Jemison is out of the game?), which should let you have less static negative camber, reduce roll, and allow you to get more grip up front. Also, I actually don't think just hte rear sway bar is going to reduce the roll by that much. I'm not sure why, but installing the rear sway bar on my car only made a moderate difference, not enough to remove the roll you are experiencing with your current setup. If any of this is rambling or unclear, I appologize, I really need to get more sleep.

[ar4me]

As you may recall Louis could not get the drop spindles to work with the RSR front coils. If I recall correctly, he said he needed longer springs for it to work... Of course, you can go down that road, but I can think of other places where my time and $ are probably better spent = at the track . Seriously, even moifying the car, I think negative front and rear camber are more important. To me, the negative camber front and rear to carry more speed through the turns and on exits is more important than the brake force I may loose. Braking a little earlier if required should be made up by all that extra speed down the straights.

I believe weigth is a big issue. A V6 Milano (at 2500 lbs) vs. an I4 Alfetta GT (at 2000 lbs) - much lighter and quite a bit better weight distribution.

Try get Mats to post detailed pics and specs of his setup!

BTW, yup, alfapower.nu is pretty interesting to _read_ - some cool projects.

BTW2, by "critize" I wasn't referring to you.

Jes

[grant]

MMmmmm...Good long nap makes everything well again.

Yeah, time really is the major factor sometimes, especially once you can start pulling in an income..makes more sense to pay people to do things for you than to do it yourself sometimes. I find it remarkable that you're able to do everything on your own with Roxanne actually!

But yeah, I think just longer springs and possibly a spacer on top of the shock or a slightly taller bracket would make Rons kit work with dropped spindles. For me at least, I only need to overcome an inch and a quarter!

I wonder then, is a GTV6 goign to be about as heavy as a race milano, or can it be brought down a lot more than 2500 lbs?

Also, after seeing those pics Barry put up of the SZ, would Ron's kit work out of the box as a coilover only unit?? Torsion bars are pretty heavy, one could drop some more pounds and use a more useful upper and lower control arm.

Jes, in the Netherlands, why are people racing in Alfa only cups? Are the transaxle cars just not competetive with other similar era cars, or is there some other reason for having only Alfas racing together?

[ar4me]

Jes, in the Netherlands, why are people racing in Alfa only cups? Are the transaxle cars just not competetive with other similar era cars, or is there some other reason for having only Alfas racing together?

The Dutch are the ones that run those crazy 400+ HP 75 IMSA cars.

I think a GTV6 can be lighter than the Milano. Colin's GTV6 has a monster cage, but "only" weighs the same as Roxanne! With an equal cage Roxanne would probably be 100+ lbs heavier. Hmm, but then Roxanne has a much heavier fuel system, though not 100 lbs more. Anyway, I think an "equal" GTV6 would be lighter...

Unless you get some serious power out of the V6, I think an I4 Alfetta GT is a "better" track car, or a Milano with a worked TS.

Jes

[Mats]

I think the 75 body is lighter then the GTV. You just need to really get everything out of it.

The reason I pretty much stay out of the chassis discussions are because I don't feel I have enough competence to really say anything about it and also because I have realized that the tracks are so different across the world that one setup might be completely useless on another continent.

I will say two things though:

1. Laptimes are king.
2. F**k ride comfort, this is racing.

[grant]

Mats, I was thinking, do you suppose utilizing a smaller diameter wheel and tire combination, say 15X7 with 225/45/15 would net a quicker lap?

I'm thinking that will let the car's CG drop a bit, and allow you to maintain better suspension geometry at the ride height you want. Why do people use big wheels anyways? Other than clearing brakes, I don't get it?

[grant]

Also, I don't think it makes sense that the GTV6 body is lighter than the Milano body. The GTV6 weighs less to start out with. If you mean strictly the shell and nothing else with it, I have no idea which one is lighter. GTV shell seems a bit more rigid though.

[Rookie ROX]

I'll just chip in a few limited tidbits here.

GTV6 weight - It has the rear hatch, and in general with all hatches, they weigh a crapload due to the size of the glass, plus everything metal in the hatch. I'd imagine it's the same with the GTV?

As for roll - I'm no expert on the transaxle and DeDion setup, but my understanding was that bodyroll was part of how it all worked? It can roll more because unlike something like an IRS car, when it rolls, it isn't bringing wheels with it. I see this working as today I somehow managed to shear off the bolt from one of my rear shocks, so I had no dampening in the rear left. The car still turned corners fine and I had no serious issues, except of course the body would bounce and roll a bit more as there was nothing dampening all the bumps. *shrugs*

So anybody have a spare Koni Yellow?

ROCK ON
R~R

[Mats]

You mean if one can get the gearing down by switching to smaller wheels and if you can gain something? In theory, yes, but only if you don't have to shift extra times.
Larger circumference wheels = more surface to cool the tire. You can drive drive harder or use softer compound.
Not the same thing with width though as that makes the contact patch shape different. Wider = shorter/wider patch = less feedback before it slides but more grip.

All this in theory naturally.

[grant]

I think the stock suspension is not bad, I mean these cars are WAY more predictable than an E30 325is..you have to be on top of your game if you decide to lift off when cornering hard. But, as soon as you get to the limit in a 116 car, this picture happens:

As you can see, the rear tires are held up straight but what about the fronts? Also, when the body rolls as much as it does, the center of gracity shifts where you don't want it: onto the already overworked tires, which reduces the available grip. Another side effect of roll is that the front end geometry gets messed up, as you can already see in the picture. Basically, for racing, you want as little roll as possible.

Mats, I thought about tires over heating, but I hadn't thought of the effect it would have on the gearing at the track. I think at my level, as long as you I don't top out in 5th gear, all is well