Has this ever been tried??
I would love to S/C a TwinSpark 2.0 and stick it in a 105 GTA replica, or an early Alfetta GT......
What sort of specs could you expect?? Power estimates.
Keep the standard pistons?? say running about 9 psi, will they be strong enough. I guess you could off set the little end bush -1mm to drop the C/R.
what size supercharger - M45/M62 eaton, or a Vortec/Rotrex type??
Your Ideas........ Greg?? Jim.K?? anyone??
Supercharged 2.0 TwinSpark.....
Andrew b
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Greg Gordon
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Either the M45 or the M62 will work.
As a general rule with roots blowers it's best to use the smallest supercharger you can because it's more effiecent to spin a small one fast then a big one slow.
Assuming a 7000 RPM redline the most you can get from the M45 (without overspeeding the supercharger) would be about 8-9 psi on a 2.0. So if a max of 8-9 PSI is OK I would go with the M45.
The M62 can deliver about 15 psi on a 2.0 (once again figuring a 7000 rpm engine redline).
They say special coatings on the rotors can give another 1 psi, but these coatings cost about $600 and I have not tried them.
Of course everyone knows I would go with an Eaton/Magnuson type, or maybe a Lysholm style for certain applications (IHI if it would fit but it's too long for the GTV6/Milano chassis). If it was a cost no object race car and I didn't care about fuel economy probably a Lysholm, a car I actually planned to use, Eaton/Magnuson.
As a general rule with roots blowers it's best to use the smallest supercharger you can because it's more effiecent to spin a small one fast then a big one slow.
Assuming a 7000 RPM redline the most you can get from the M45 (without overspeeding the supercharger) would be about 8-9 psi on a 2.0. So if a max of 8-9 PSI is OK I would go with the M45.
The M62 can deliver about 15 psi on a 2.0 (once again figuring a 7000 rpm engine redline).
They say special coatings on the rotors can give another 1 psi, but these coatings cost about $600 and I have not tried them.
Of course everyone knows I would go with an Eaton/Magnuson type, or maybe a Lysholm style for certain applications (IHI if it would fit but it's too long for the GTV6/Milano chassis). If it was a cost no object race car and I didn't care about fuel economy probably a Lysholm, a car I actually planned to use, Eaton/Magnuson.
Andrew,
I know a guy in Denmark running a Rotrex SC on the good old 8 valve 2 liter TS (out of a 75). I belive he gets about 230 reliable wheel HP at about 0.6 bar, estimated 250 crank HP. Think they did a kit - super nice, the engine compartment looks factory! He is running it in an Alfetta GTV (to use US terminology). Inherently , the Rotrex is super quite due to its innovative design, but unfortunately, also more costly.
Jes
I know a guy in Denmark running a Rotrex SC on the good old 8 valve 2 liter TS (out of a 75). I belive he gets about 230 reliable wheel HP at about 0.6 bar, estimated 250 crank HP. Think they did a kit - super nice, the engine compartment looks factory! He is running it in an Alfetta GTV (to use US terminology). Inherently , the Rotrex is super quite due to its innovative design, but unfortunately, also more costly.
Jes
Last edited by ar4me on Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
Hi Jes,ar4me wrote:Andrew,
I know a guy in Denmark running a Rotrex SC on the good old 8 valve 2 liter TS (out of a 75). I belive he gets about 230 reliable wheel HP at about 0.6 bar, estimated 250 crank HP. Think they did a kit - super nice, the engine compartment looks factory! He is running it in an Alfetta GTV (to use US terminology). Inherently , the Rotrex is super quite due to its innovative design, but unfortunately, also more costly.
Jes
Cool..... Do you have any pictures??? be nice to see!
Was it a road car?
Greg,
Interesting..... 15psi from a m62 sounds like fun!! I wonder haw difficult this would be to fit, the 75 t/s has a well placed bracket for the power steering - i'm sure it could use the mounting points??
Have you thought of a 4 cylinder kit Greg?? M62 for the T/S 75 motors?
Keep it fairly stock, nice and easy - i'd guess at around 220-240 bhp??
I'd LOVE to do a replica Giulia GTA-SA replica, as the factory race team made around 10 or 12 Gp.5 racers running a supercharger that had 250hp from 1.6!!
Andrew b
Yes, a road car. No pics 
, but video of first start-up after rebuild of engine with lower compression 
Though, the previous HP numbers was with stock compression (before rebuilding).
Jes
, but video of first start-up after rebuild of engine with lower compression Though, the previous HP numbers was with stock compression (before rebuilding).Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Greg Gordon
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I can't make a supercharger kit for the twin spark because I would have to have the engine and the car in my shop.
Remember this think BARELY fits in the GTV6. It has about 1/4 inch clearance on both sides, behind, above and below the supercharger. It would actually be easier to fit on a 4 cylinder but without the car I can't do it.
Bye the way, the Supercharged Milano is in Southern California right now so if anyone wants to check it out or go for a ride PM me.
Remember this think BARELY fits in the GTV6. It has about 1/4 inch clearance on both sides, behind, above and below the supercharger. It would actually be easier to fit on a 4 cylinder but without the car I can't do it.
Bye the way, the Supercharged Milano is in Southern California right now so if anyone wants to check it out or go for a ride PM me.
I would think it is better to use the AC compressor mounting point on the cold side of things.
Jes: Rotrex, is that a radial compressor type?
Greg: why would you get worse fuel economy with a Lysholm?
Andrew: Turbo ffs!
btw, London over christmas, fancy a pint?
Jes: Rotrex, is that a radial compressor type?
Greg: why would you get worse fuel economy with a Lysholm?
Andrew: Turbo ffs!
btw, London over christmas, fancy a pint?
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
Check out http://www.rotrex.dk/ for technical details of the Rotrex compressor - see the technology pull-down. No worries (about a Danish link), it is all in English.
Jes
Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Greg Gordon
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- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Mats that's not a simple question.
The Lysholm is a great unit, I am not knocking it at all. As a general rule its numbers are better then a Roots type at higher boost levels. However I like the Roots type better for a street car. Well...here goes:
The Lysholm unit is an internal compression supercharger meaning that the compression takes place inside the unit and expands as it comes out. The Roots type blows air out into a confined space (the engine) where it compresses.
We can reduce the load a supercharger puts on the motor with a bypass valve that opens up on the discharge side of the supercharger when boost is not needed. This is exactly how Magnuson kits (Roots) and Whipple kits (Lysholm) do it. With the bypass valve open on the Roots type the only energy used is that needed to spin the supercharger itself. Since there is no compression taking place drag on the belt is minimal. Magnuson says 1/3 of a horsepower with a 112 cubic inch supercharger at highway speeds. The Lysholm unit is still compressing air drawing power and creating heat with its bypass valve open, not as much as it would be otherwise but the effects are significant. That's it, the Lysholm simply has more drag with the valve open.
Another street advantage of the Roots type is this. With the valve open nothing is getting heat soaked. When you hit the throttle and get boost the intercooler if used will be realatively cool. Of course this advantage is lost in racing applications where boost is used a lot and the intercooler never gets a chance to cool down. In these cases the Lysholm's cooler discharge air is an advantage.
Probably the biggest problem with the Roots is that the only really modern Roots Supercharger is the Eaton/Magnuson unit and they only offer sizes up to 112 cubic inches. For high boost levels on bigger engines like the Ford 4.6 it's just not enough, hence people putting Lysholms on thier factory Roots supercharged Mustangs.
Mercedes used a clutch to disconnet the supercharger during cruise. That would take care of the Lysholm fuel economy issue but it's pretty tricky to do and is useless for aftermarket applications because it's not practical to change pulley sizes. Plus the last thing I want is another part that wears out.
The Lysholm is a great unit, I am not knocking it at all. As a general rule its numbers are better then a Roots type at higher boost levels. However I like the Roots type better for a street car. Well...here goes:
The Lysholm unit is an internal compression supercharger meaning that the compression takes place inside the unit and expands as it comes out. The Roots type blows air out into a confined space (the engine) where it compresses.
We can reduce the load a supercharger puts on the motor with a bypass valve that opens up on the discharge side of the supercharger when boost is not needed. This is exactly how Magnuson kits (Roots) and Whipple kits (Lysholm) do it. With the bypass valve open on the Roots type the only energy used is that needed to spin the supercharger itself. Since there is no compression taking place drag on the belt is minimal. Magnuson says 1/3 of a horsepower with a 112 cubic inch supercharger at highway speeds. The Lysholm unit is still compressing air drawing power and creating heat with its bypass valve open, not as much as it would be otherwise but the effects are significant. That's it, the Lysholm simply has more drag with the valve open.
Another street advantage of the Roots type is this. With the valve open nothing is getting heat soaked. When you hit the throttle and get boost the intercooler if used will be realatively cool. Of course this advantage is lost in racing applications where boost is used a lot and the intercooler never gets a chance to cool down. In these cases the Lysholm's cooler discharge air is an advantage.
Probably the biggest problem with the Roots is that the only really modern Roots Supercharger is the Eaton/Magnuson unit and they only offer sizes up to 112 cubic inches. For high boost levels on bigger engines like the Ford 4.6 it's just not enough, hence people putting Lysholms on thier factory Roots supercharged Mustangs.
Mercedes used a clutch to disconnet the supercharger during cruise. That would take care of the Lysholm fuel economy issue but it's pretty tricky to do and is useless for aftermarket applications because it's not practical to change pulley sizes. Plus the last thing I want is another part that wears out.
This guy Colin Byrne in OZ has done this with a SC from a Toyota MR2 into a 105
Might be of interest, plenty of pics including mounting etc, its also intercooled and retained the Dellortos, it must sound awsome!
Look at this site http://gtv.ecodive.org/SCALFA/gtv/Fuel&Spark.htm
Might be of interest, plenty of pics including mounting etc, its also intercooled and retained the Dellortos, it must sound awsome!
Look at this site http://gtv.ecodive.org/SCALFA/gtv/Fuel&Spark.htm
Well,At least someone has done it and nicely so.On his site it says it is a 1300 engine,fits in nicely with the s/c.
Andrew,std pistons are not going to last-the second ringland is the weak link.More temps here than a turbo,so even less reliability on that piston...
Andrew,std pistons are not going to last-the second ringland is the weak link.More temps here than a turbo,so even less reliability on that piston...
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
Greg, thanks for the writeup, not very up to date when it comes to superchergers.
This comes from practical testing i presume? I would have thought that the supercharger wouldn't steal that much power since it was running in low pressure in cruise behind the throttle but as I said, I'm not up to date in supercharger stuff.
This comes from practical testing i presume? I would have thought that the supercharger wouldn't steal that much power since it was running in low pressure in cruise behind the throttle but as I said, I'm not up to date in supercharger stuff.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Mats:
My practical experience is with the Roots type. I have not used the Lysholm. On the 2.5 the Roots type has not caused any significant reduction in fuel economy. The 3.0 with stock injectors responds the same way, although with big injectors fuel economy sufferes a little. However this is a result of Big injectors and nearly stock L-Jet, not the supercharger.
The Lysholm fuel economy issue is based on other people's practiacal experience, not mine. I can only do one major project at a time.
Let me get this straight. A guy in OZ uses a blow through carb setup with an ancient supercharger and I have to take a lot of crap for using L-Jet?
My practical experience is with the Roots type. I have not used the Lysholm. On the 2.5 the Roots type has not caused any significant reduction in fuel economy. The 3.0 with stock injectors responds the same way, although with big injectors fuel economy sufferes a little. However this is a result of Big injectors and nearly stock L-Jet, not the supercharger.
The Lysholm fuel economy issue is based on other people's practiacal experience, not mine. I can only do one major project at a time.
Let me get this straight. A guy in OZ uses a blow through carb setup with an ancient supercharger and I have to take a lot of crap for using L-Jet?