Hello,
Checked base with Phil today and the good news is the Alfa starts and runs. Unfortunately, I was told that the Gotech system is good for full on throttle but can not get it to run well in the lower RMS's. This means that that the Alfa will not pass smog even if I get pass the physical inspection.
Phil is going to get more information but he is basically suggesting that I dump the Gotech system and get another management system. This sound expensive. Phil did not do anything with the cams yet as I guess he belived me when I said they should be ok and to look at the Gotech more.
This leads me to my next question. Does anyone have a gotch system on a 3.0L 24V in CA that runs well and passes smog??
Marc,do you have smog testing as well?rz wrote:i think i will face the same problem in the near future
my mechanic said he wasn't sure that he could tune the gotech system.
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
cchan,
I posted in your parallel thread on the AlfaBB, but basically, you need to get the fuel and ignition maps tuned professionally. Find someone with a dyno who understands aftermarket engine management systems and tuning thereof. Someone with GoTech knowdedge would be even better, but probably not necessary if they have experience with tuning other aftermarket engine management systems.
Jes
I posted in your parallel thread on the AlfaBB, but basically, you need to get the fuel and ignition maps tuned professionally. Find someone with a dyno who understands aftermarket engine management systems and tuning thereof. Someone with GoTech knowdedge would be even better, but probably not necessary if they have experience with tuning other aftermarket engine management systems.
Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Just wait a second here:
As long as Gotech can adjust the idle and part throttle air fuel ratio to 14.7:1 there is no reason it shouldn't be able to pass the tail pipe test (providing the engine itself is capable of passing). If it has an O2 sensor it should be able to do that. I have to think Gotech can do it, unless the fuel injectors are so large that it can't pulse them fast enough at idle to get it that lean. I just don't see a potential problem here. Perhaps I am missing something.
Greg Gordon
As long as Gotech can adjust the idle and part throttle air fuel ratio to 14.7:1 there is no reason it shouldn't be able to pass the tail pipe test (providing the engine itself is capable of passing). If it has an O2 sensor it should be able to do that. I have to think Gotech can do it, unless the fuel injectors are so large that it can't pulse them fast enough at idle to get it that lean. I just don't see a potential problem here. Perhaps I am missing something.
Greg Gordon
any decent aftermarket programmable fuel control can pass smog (assuming no one sees that there is an aftermarket computer and you have CC's on the exhaust)
What you do is get the engine tuned professionally on a dyno so it runs great as mentioned above. Save this a program "A" or whatever
Then reprogram the setup to run a little leaner, clean up exhaust output, emmission particles or whatever and save this as program "B"
best to do the program 'B' tuning while hooked up to an exhaust monitor at a private inspection station. Sometimes the guys there will let you tune the car while hooked up to the monitor for a few extra bucks(
). Now you are guaranteed to pass. As soon as you pull out of the inspection station, reload program "A" until nex time....
What you do is get the engine tuned professionally on a dyno so it runs great as mentioned above. Save this a program "A" or whatever
Then reprogram the setup to run a little leaner, clean up exhaust output, emmission particles or whatever and save this as program "B"
best to do the program 'B' tuning while hooked up to an exhaust monitor at a private inspection station. Sometimes the guys there will let you tune the car while hooked up to the monitor for a few extra bucks(
). Now you are guaranteed to pass. As soon as you pull out of the inspection station, reload program "A" until nex time....82 GTV6 Restoration
OK, well here is were we are at: I was told the following:
1). The wiring diagram that came with the set up disks, etc does not match the actual wires so on the double check of all wiring we can not do this since the diagram does not match the system that we have. Can anyone post a correct wiring diagram for a Gotech Pro?
2). We went back to the basic map that Jess gave us. We used an O2 sensor and any changes to the map happens on the computer but not the actual engine. Long delay, basically seems like the computer box is broken. There was a large scratch on the gotech system and maybe my gotech is defective?
3). Alfa is idling at 1100 RPM. Should idle around 900 RPM. Anything less and the Alfa will stall. I was told that if this is track car then this would be ok. Right now we are running rich and hot so we need to be careful and not burn out the cats. WOT is no problem but I was told this is the easy part.
4). Phil feels that if he replaces to A-tech management system he can properly tune the Alfa to idle smoothly and pass CA smog with max HP. Does anyone know anything about an A-tech management system.
5). My other option is to souce the 164LS original ECU, harness, AFM and have the stock set up. I think that JJ said that the GoTech System and Stock 164LS system will put out the same HP.
At this point in this I think that it maybe smarter to go with stock ECU since I will not get any more HP and it will allow me to have more consultants willing to help us as well as pass visual better. It may have become diluted on my thread since it is so long. However, at the start of my project a major goal was to have a street car and to pass CA smog and registration.
1). The wiring diagram that came with the set up disks, etc does not match the actual wires so on the double check of all wiring we can not do this since the diagram does not match the system that we have. Can anyone post a correct wiring diagram for a Gotech Pro?
2). We went back to the basic map that Jess gave us. We used an O2 sensor and any changes to the map happens on the computer but not the actual engine. Long delay, basically seems like the computer box is broken. There was a large scratch on the gotech system and maybe my gotech is defective?
3). Alfa is idling at 1100 RPM. Should idle around 900 RPM. Anything less and the Alfa will stall. I was told that if this is track car then this would be ok. Right now we are running rich and hot so we need to be careful and not burn out the cats. WOT is no problem but I was told this is the easy part.
4). Phil feels that if he replaces to A-tech management system he can properly tune the Alfa to idle smoothly and pass CA smog with max HP. Does anyone know anything about an A-tech management system.
5). My other option is to souce the 164LS original ECU, harness, AFM and have the stock set up. I think that JJ said that the GoTech System and Stock 164LS system will put out the same HP.
At this point in this I think that it maybe smarter to go with stock ECU since I will not get any more HP and it will allow me to have more consultants willing to help us as well as pass visual better. It may have become diluted on my thread since it is so long. However, at the start of my project a major goal was to have a street car and to pass CA smog and registration.
82 GTV6 Restoration
Hi Zamani,
Just saw your post. This is exactly what problem we are having. Cold Start we need to use the Hand throttle to hold the idle high until the Alfa is warmed up.
All minor changes for idle either does not work right away or there is a lag time.
What did you do to over come this??
Just saw your post. This is exactly what problem we are having. Cold Start we need to use the Hand throttle to hold the idle high until the Alfa is warmed up.
All minor changes for idle either does not work right away or there is a lag time.
What did you do to over come this??
82 GTV6 Restoration
Hi Zamani,
Is your brother Jack?? Anyway, I thought you had this problem but no worries. Can you refresh my memory. I know you have a Milano and not a GTV6. Can you tell me what engine set up you have??
Is your brother Jack?? Anyway, I thought you had this problem but no worries. Can you refresh my memory. I know you have a Milano and not a GTV6. Can you tell me what engine set up you have??
cchan,
Sorry to say this, but it sounds like you guys are lost. Why don't you take JJ up on his offer to help? At least have Phil call JJ, please. If the box is broken I'm sure he will exchange it. Get the right person on it and it will probably be solved quickly.
BTW, if it is any concellation, I know of at least one 3.0 V6 12v that passed CA emissions running GoTech.
Oh, and after proper adjustments I had zero problems with cold start and idling on neither of 12v 3.0 and 24v 3.2, both on GoTech.
You would not get max power with 164 LS/Q stock electronics. You would need a Unichip, but you would still have the AFM (stealing power). Though, in retrospect perhaps that is the route you should have taken if you are not comfortable with GoTech.
Jes
Sorry to say this, but it sounds like you guys are lost. Why don't you take JJ up on his offer to help? At least have Phil call JJ, please. If the box is broken I'm sure he will exchange it. Get the right person on it and it will probably be solved quickly.
BTW, if it is any concellation, I know of at least one 3.0 V6 12v that passed CA emissions running GoTech.
Oh, and after proper adjustments I had zero problems with cold start and idling on neither of 12v 3.0 and 24v 3.2, both on GoTech.
You would not get max power with 164 LS/Q stock electronics. You would need a Unichip, but you would still have the AFM (stealing power). Though, in retrospect perhaps that is the route you should have taken if you are not comfortable with GoTech.
Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
-
junglejustice
- Verde
- Posts: 624
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:19 am
- Location: Granolaville, WA
Re: 82 GTV6 Restoration
If the bloody thing starts, then it is NOT defective! Chuck, if you are not going to listen to me, at least follow the advice of others here - they are giving you GOOD advice...
This thread is going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Chuck - we never had access to an AFM at Carlos' "shop" - it was my intention to bring one with me from G2 on the next trip - a trip that never happened. Without it, you guys are pissin' in the wind! IF PHIL IS A PRO - HE SHOULD KNOW THIS.
Also, if Phil has 24v experience HE SHOULD NOT NEED THE CAM TOOLS! The marks are 100% identical to the 164 LS/Q marks - he should know this! Leave the cams alone - get help with tuning the GoTech. Phil is lost - have him call me - I will help - no charge.
I also told you that specifically for the Alfas we are LUCKY to have an "Alfa-guy" with GoTech in South Africa - Domingos - who produces the firm-ware for the GoTechs! Since he is an Alfa-guy and runs 24 valvers and twin sparks on GoTech himself and does all of the GoTech installs and dyno-tunes for Glenwood, he and his brother Paul make complete, custom, plug-and-play harnesses for me here in the States as well! However - those harnesses DON'T necessarily match the wring harness diagrams in the manual - they do the work for us and use short-cut/better application practical changes to the harnesses for me - specifically for the Alfas!
So, yes - yours doesn't match. As with the cam-timing - don't **** with it! It works (worked when I was there) 100%. Focus on tuning the GoTech!
MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE MAKING CHANGES IN THE PAGES OF THE ACTUAL RPM-RANGES WHERE THE MOTOR IS ACTUALLY RUNNING AND TO THE ACTUAL LOAD-CELLS WHERE THE LOAD-BAR INDICATES THAT YOU ARE ACTIVE. REMEMBER TO INITIATE CHANGES TO THE LOAD-CELLS IMMEDIATELY TO THE LEFT AND TO THE RIGHT OF THE "ACTIVE" LOAD BAR-INDICATED CELL - as mentioned before...
It WILL change the fuel! Are you changing timing or are you guys in the wrong rpm fields perhaps? HAVE PHIL CALL ME - the guy sounds very lost!
KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS CAR HAS NOT BEEN TUNED - WE HAD NO ACCESS TO AN AFM WHEN WE STARTED IT!
Tony in NY (retail customer) did ALL OF THIS on his own with an LM-1 in his drive-way and his HOT 3.0 12 valve is SMOOTH as silk! So did Sam in TN, so did Jes down in SoCal, so did I on several 12 and 24 valve engines, so did Stewart at APC (and he put superchargers on), so did the G2 guys on 4-bangers, So did Uwe and Silvano in LA on that HOT-HOT twin spark, so did Chris at Engine Logics in Houston - no problem - why can Phil not figure it out!? GoTech sells 200 boxes per month JUST IN LITTLE OL' South Africa alone without these issues - surely somebody can tune your car!
Another 1,000 bucks later for the UniChip, plus install, plus dyno-work and now you still have to source ALL of the stock Bosch stuff AND install it! BAD idea!
You need ALL of the stock sensors, including TWO knock-sensors, the cam angle sensor, (open the cam-angle sensor hole back up and install it), change back to the 164 throttle-body and now get that TPS going again - HUGE undertaking at this point my friend!
Even then - the AFM is more restrictive and you won't quite see all of the potential of that motor coming through for you on stock electronics; without the UniChip it will REALLY run like crap...!
This is SO painful to watch - get the help with this already!
425.941.4747.
This thread is going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Chuck - we never had access to an AFM at Carlos' "shop" - it was my intention to bring one with me from G2 on the next trip - a trip that never happened. Without it, you guys are pissin' in the wind! IF PHIL IS A PRO - HE SHOULD KNOW THIS.
Also, if Phil has 24v experience HE SHOULD NOT NEED THE CAM TOOLS! The marks are 100% identical to the 164 LS/Q marks - he should know this! Leave the cams alone - get help with tuning the GoTech. Phil is lost - have him call me - I will help - no charge.
Yes, the diagram is different. If you recall I was VERY clear that ALL manufacturers of after-market engine management systems (AEM, Autronic, SDS, Motec, Haltec etc - ALL of them) send you an ECU, a roll of wires and a bunch of little baggies with connectors in it (maybe...) INCLUDING GoTech - for OTHER manufacturers' applications.cchan wrote: OK, well here is were we are at: I was told the following:
1). The wiring diagram that came with the set up disks, etc does not match the actual wires so on the double check of all wiring we can not do this since the diagram does not match the system that we have. Can anyone post a correct wiring diagram for a Gotech Pro?
I also told you that specifically for the Alfas we are LUCKY to have an "Alfa-guy" with GoTech in South Africa - Domingos - who produces the firm-ware for the GoTechs! Since he is an Alfa-guy and runs 24 valvers and twin sparks on GoTech himself and does all of the GoTech installs and dyno-tunes for Glenwood, he and his brother Paul make complete, custom, plug-and-play harnesses for me here in the States as well! However - those harnesses DON'T necessarily match the wring harness diagrams in the manual - they do the work for us and use short-cut/better application practical changes to the harnesses for me - specifically for the Alfas!
So, yes - yours doesn't match. As with the cam-timing - don't **** with it! It works (worked when I was there) 100%. Focus on tuning the GoTech!
Crap... Hope that you saved what I had already done - no biggy - couldn't change too much any way since we did not have access to an Innovate (or any other AFM there) as mentioned a million times before... You didn't loose too much! That map is WAY too rich though - from Jes' 3.2 - tone down fuel across the board about 20% for starters - go cell by cell, rpm page by rpm page.cchan wrote: 2). We went back to the basic map that Jess gave us.
Changes are made in real-time! Run the motor at say 1,100-1,200 rpm - go to the 1000-1333 rpm page - go to the fuel tables - go to the active load cell - cursor over to that cell - highlighting it blue - pull all of the fuel out - the car WILL die IF you are on the correct rpm table and in the "FUEL" mode.cchan wrote: We used an O2 sensor and any changes to the map happens on the computer but not the actual engine.
What ****ing scratch!? That box worked 100% the last time that I was there. The car screamed like a raped-ape all of the way down to the dyno-shop (save for the slipping clutch which Andrew Garcia has committed to fix for you!) That "scratch" was a VERY thin-even line that hardly penetrated the GoTech label - it is a knife-cut from a customs-agent that sliced the wrapping open when I brought it in from SA - I pointed it out to you! It is an aluminium box - a knife line on the label CANNOT damage it inside!cchan wrote: Long delay, basically seems like the computer box is broken. There was a large scratch on the gotech system and maybe my gotech is defective?
MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE MAKING CHANGES IN THE PAGES OF THE ACTUAL RPM-RANGES WHERE THE MOTOR IS ACTUALLY RUNNING AND TO THE ACTUAL LOAD-CELLS WHERE THE LOAD-BAR INDICATES THAT YOU ARE ACTIVE. REMEMBER TO INITIATE CHANGES TO THE LOAD-CELLS IMMEDIATELY TO THE LEFT AND TO THE RIGHT OF THE "ACTIVE" LOAD BAR-INDICATED CELL - as mentioned before...
It WILL change the fuel! Are you changing timing or are you guys in the wrong rpm fields perhaps? HAVE PHIL CALL ME - the guy sounds very lost!
Probably because that's where the idle-set screw was pushed out to! Make small changes in fuel to the rpm-ranges below 1000 (667-999) and then let the idle down mechanically gradually and then go and fine-tune it there in that rpm-range (667-999) USING AN AFM!cchan wrote: 3). Alfa is idling at 1100 RPM.
Sorry, but this is total BULL****! I have a 12.0:1 compression 302 degree cam full race motor idling at 1000-1100 rpm on methyl-ethyl 119 race gas - yes - running GoTech! You have a STOCK COMPRESSION 10.0:1 24 valve with a MILD GTA Stage 1 inlet cam - stock lift! It can be made to run as smooth as Motronic.cchan wrote: Anything less and the Alfa will stall. I was told that if this is track car then this would be ok.
SCREW the cats - you guys need to not blow up that motor! Glow the headers cherry-red and you'll burn valves on that thing!cchan wrote: Right now we are running rich and hot so we need to be careful and not burn out the cats.
Sure thing - standard pitch - this is where "consultant # 2" is setting up the customer to toss "consultant # 1" under the bus... I've heard that kind of comment a million times! (Usually from guys trying to make the case AGAINST programmable fuel and timing systems, or from guys trying to knock another tuners work/system, or from guys who want to sound like they know something about tuning.cchan wrote: WOT is no problem but I was told this is the easy part.
KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS CAR HAS NOT BEEN TUNED - WE HAD NO ACCESS TO AN AFM WHEN WE STARTED IT!
And there's the pitch... Chuck - he is trying to sell you something else for NO reason - 1) for the parts, 2) for the labour - either because he is too lazy to work with a new (to him) system, or because, he just wants the bucks, or he is too inexperienced to work with this stuff at all! Either way, if A-Tech can do it, so can B-Tech and GoTech and Blow-Tech and No-Tech and every other kind of "Tech" out there...!cchan wrote: 4). Phil feels that if he replaces to A-tech management system he can properly tune the Alfa to idle smoothly and pass CA smog with max HP. Does anyone know anything about an A-tech management system.
Tony in NY (retail customer) did ALL OF THIS on his own with an LM-1 in his drive-way and his HOT 3.0 12 valve is SMOOTH as silk! So did Sam in TN, so did Jes down in SoCal, so did I on several 12 and 24 valve engines, so did Stewart at APC (and he put superchargers on), so did the G2 guys on 4-bangers, So did Uwe and Silvano in LA on that HOT-HOT twin spark, so did Chris at Engine Logics in Houston - no problem - why can Phil not figure it out!? GoTech sells 200 boxes per month JUST IN LITTLE OL' South Africa alone without these issues - surely somebody can tune your car!
Well, in theory - yes - they can get close - once you do the UniChip engine-management system on there with it! The stock ECU WILL NOT provide the correct fuel and timing curves for your modified plenum, big runners, custom headers, custom cams etc though, so you'll NED the UniChip in that case and now THEY have to tune it for you. (A dyno-shop who is also a UniChip dealer - you guys don't get that software!)cchan wrote: 5). My other option is to souce the 164LS original ECU, harness, AFM and have the stock set up. I think that JJ said that the GoTech System and Stock 164LS system will put out the same HP.
Another 1,000 bucks later for the UniChip, plus install, plus dyno-work and now you still have to source ALL of the stock Bosch stuff AND install it! BAD idea!
You need ALL of the stock sensors, including TWO knock-sensors, the cam angle sensor, (open the cam-angle sensor hole back up and install it), change back to the 164 throttle-body and now get that TPS going again - HUGE undertaking at this point my friend!
Even then - the AFM is more restrictive and you won't quite see all of the potential of that motor coming through for you on stock electronics; without the UniChip it will REALLY run like crap...!
This is SO painful to watch - get the help with this already!
425.941.4747.
Last edited by junglejustice on Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:57 am, edited 6 times in total.
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
-
junglejustice
- Verde
- Posts: 624
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:19 am
- Location: Granolaville, WA
Re: 82 GTV6 Restoration
...at least listen to the other guys here, if you are not going to follow my advice...!
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
I am strongly against putting Bosch Motronic on this car. It will be hugely expensive and never work as well as a good programmable system.
Last edited by Greg Gordon on Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.