ALFAGTV6.COM

[junglejustice]

Once the Alfa started again we were able to get the Alfa to finally idle (don't really know how) but the Alfa runs poorly according to Phil.

I suspect that "Phil" got the car to idle by turning the idle set screw (that I told you would be there) up - on throttle-body - to hold the throttle open just a bit.

Any way, Chuck you don't need timing tools for this thing; there are clear marks on the backs of the cams to line up with the head-surfaces! Besides, you have GTA Stage I inlet cams and standard 164 exhaust cams, so you would need a mixture of cam dies from 2 models of cars.

The cam timing on this thing is perfect - don't fuck with it! It's not a cam-issue. The GoTech needs tuning right now. The shop there did not have an Innovate LM-1 or any other type of air/fuel-ratio meter - I was never able to set the idle-fueling correctly! You need to borrow or buy one and get the idle fuel right.

Maybe, wait until you go back to the dyno to do that.

At some point throw a fresh set of plugs in there too - all of the start-up and shut-down and short runs with improper fueling on top of that will foul up the plugs real fast.

Also, as far as the clutch is concerned - Andrew Garcia already told us 4-5 months ago that there must be some unknown issue with the clutch-unit that he supplied (possibly a weak pressure-plate, oil on the clutch-plate or something) and that he has another unit prepared and ready to install sitting there.)

As for GoTech's US support - I am it for units that I sell and I have not received any calls from you! Phil can call me for pointers - 425.941.4747.

[cchan]

Hi X-rad,

You know exactly were I am coming from. Just trying to elimate as many variables as possible as we finish the sorting of the Alfa.

JJ,

In regards to the cams, I am not sure why the Alfa is running rough. However, remember the starter issue. If I just changed the solonid like you suggested we would still be having the same issue. It turns out that the headers hit the starter which caused the starter to bind. Therefore, at this point on my project we are double checking everything just to make sure their are no more issues. If anyone knows how much $ I have invested it would be you. I really hate to have to spend the extra $ but we feel we have no other alternative.

[junglejustice]

It's not in the cams - it's in the fueling but without an air/fuel-ratio meter, you're just guessing!

I never had access to one down there and I was going to just bring one from Group 2 down with me on the next trip (which - as you know - never happened...)

"Phil" needs to get one and plug it in or he will fuck this motor up running it way rich like that! Simply adjusting it lien without a meter will burn valves. Quit screwing around with the cams and other shit - get an AFM.

He should know this.

[cchan]

Hello Forum,

Were stuck on checking the cams still. I will look at the Alfa tomorrow but I was told it runs poorly. We were told that to adjust the cams per Alfa specs we need the tools. No questions asked. If you want it done correctly, you need this. Especially since the marks that he sees does not make sense. I really have no clue at this point so we are working to get the correct cam timing tools. We are going to further adjust the Gotech system more on Sat but I was told that they adjusted the fuel mixture today and they could not get the engine to run smoothly below 1600 RPM's.

Good news though, Hagerty Insured the Alfa for all the $ I invested so far. This tells me that our GTV6's are going up in value, and are considered collectable and valuable or the insurance company would not issue me a stated value policy. Of course, if the Alfa was stolen I would be so sad and lose all my time, etc.

I wish someone could let me borrow the cam timing tools for a 3.2 GTA engine intake and I think a 3.0 164LS exhaust outlet so that I would have the correct tools. Does anyone have any suggestions? I have not had a chance to research this and we do not have access to this right now.

Another question that I have is that is it standard operating proceedure that when one changes cams in a 3.0L 24V engine that you need to have this tool?? I am hearing different opinions and I was wonding what BB's thought. Thanks again for any further insite. 14 months into this project so far but I think I am the only one counting.

[Greg Gordon]

Cchan, I know this is frustrating. I just want to chime in and say that with any project of this magnitude there are always issues. Your car's issues really are not that bad, frustrating yes, but once the car is operational it will have all been worth it.

Slight problems with custom headers are common, I sort of doubt that caused the starter issue, I tend to think that was a coincidence. The clutch was probably contaminated, I would take it out and wipe it down with acetone. Once grease gets on the friction surfaces it tough to notice and not much else will take it off thoroughly. The weak pressure plate theory is valid, but I have never encountered that.

The engine situation sounds like fuel or ignition timing, possibly irregular spark. Those factory marks on cams are very reliable. I don't work much with 24 valvers, but I have never seen an Alfa cam marking that was not dead on spec.

I would not trust a dyno shop's O2 sensor. They always seem to be off a little. They get a lot of use and are rarely calibrated. Buy your own and calibrate it yourself. I know a lot of guys like the Innovative units, and I am sure they are great. I like NGK's and it's inexpensive.

Greg Gordon

[junglejustice]

YOU DO NOT NEED THE DAMN TOOLS! Besides - the cam timing is PERFECT!

Don't mess with it!

If you want to check my work, by all means - do - use the marks - they are 100% correct!

Have Phil call me with the covers off, the crank set on the TDC mark and a flash-light in hand!

[cchan]

Hi JJ,

Baring the past problems with my project which I assume are now behind us since you are still posting here. We are now trouble shooting rather than double checking. I was so busy today that I did not get to check out the running condition so I really don't know how it drives. Phil is trouble shooting everything and I cann't really argue with him, since I am a rookie mechanic. I trust that the parts that I purchased from you are good and correct. I informed him that I thought you do not need these tools but he is /was a certified Alfa mechanic among other credentials.

We never realized how hard it would be to find a good Alfa Mechanic not to mention an Alfa Mechanic who would even help me with my modified Alfa. Also, I think it is safe to say that after checking around there is no GTV6 3.0L 24V around in CA that is running a set up that we chose.

I am not saying that I don't like my set up as I will have faith that once this project is done 270Hp, ect is going to be fantastic. I think that I just did not think it though enough in terms of my real ability to be a hobby mechanic. Now we are way over our heads in terms of the final tuning of the Alfa. I mean, of course I can get to where we are now, but if the Alfa doesn't run like it should, then we just have a very pretty paper weight. I know that I will learn the fine aspects of cam timing, and fuel tuning as I build up my experience and special tools for this Alfa. I just did not realize as everyone was giving me all these great ideas, that no one really actually did it to their Alfa GTV6 in the USA.

Anyway, besides JJ who I know feels you do not need these tools now, what are other Forum members thoughts about how they change their cams. Do you need the tool by the book for Factory Maintance or can we just line up the marks. We respect JJ abilities and Phil's as well. I just really don't know, so I am educating myself and basically gathering information.

Its really funny but I still think of my Alfa as a basically stock Alfa. More than 3 prospective consultants said after either actually looking at the Alfa or Pictures of the Alfa told me that this Alfa is about as far from Stock as you can go. I had to wait in line to get a spot for to even have my Alfa checked out. Therefore, we would really be unprofessional to make suggestions that we really have no idea about.

Hopefully, the cam tool timing kit was found/borrowed/begged/don't need it and the my engine cams, timing, belt,etc are in compliance with Phil and are now ruled out as why the Alfa is rough running.

Again, no pictures but soon I hope to have the final completed pictures along with a video of the dyno tune showing the actual numbers with a real camera.

[fedezyl]

Well, I thought I might add my 2 cents here worth to the thread.
My own (amateur I must say) experience is that at least on nord and sud engines, the alfa timing marks are dead on, I rechecked it with a cam timing tool in both engines.
My only experience as far as tuning goes is with carbs, 45 webers on a modified 1.6. It took me a while, a lot of reading, ruining a set of pistons, to finally learn how to properly tune them (thank god I have about 6 spare engines plus parts to screw around). As far as the engine running rough, if the timing is on the marks, I'd rule it out, next as JJ pointed out, get a good wideband O2 sensor and that would definetely point you on the right direction (it did when I was setting up the carbs).
For anecdote, I have a friend of mine with Megasquirt in his Nissan Sentra, and it has taken him several months of trial and error to get it right, so my money is on the Gotech setup.
Tuning an engine is not easy, car manufacturers spend quite some money on it, so don't expect it to be easy, be patient, get the right tools (wideband sensor) and the right people with the experience, even if overseas and you'll be ok.

Good luck mate!

[junglejustice]

Chuck, have Phil call me - I will tell him EXACTLY what marks to look at!

Two of them are REAL clear and two of them - well - I can see how they could be somewhat of a question for somebody who doesn't have any experience with 24 valve Alfa heads and cams...

425.491.4747

[Michael]

Johan - why dont you post some pics which illustrate the marks? Maybe there are some already posted. I had this exact question when I took the cam covers off my Glenwood engine. Still an open question for me too.

[junglejustice]

Good call - I took some pics, but unfortunately the difference is not clearly vissible with a 5.0 MP camera...

I can explain it and call it out in a heart-beat over the phone though -sorry guys! Once you see it, you'll never miss them again...

Easy to be out 180 degrees on the crank, but once you are 100% on TDC, the marks on the cams will be there! You'll CLEARLY see them!

Call me any time.
Cheers, JvR
425.941.4747

[cchan]

Hi Michael,

How is your project going? JJ, please post the pictures anyway and just mark with a pen, etc to show where the mark should be. This way I would have a better idea of the situation.

[junglejustice]

Piss-drunk on World Cup Rugby... GO SOUTH AFRICA!!!

Any way - re-took the pics - try these... The mark is clearly visible on my screen...

Ignore the "other" manufacturing marks - focus on the one timing mark (that passes all of the way through to the edge...)

[Barry]

Cchan,You cannot miss when working with the marks..and to make things real easy,follow the following pointers..

Standing in front of the engine,pulleys facing you..

Left bank exhaust cam front (#1 cyl)lobe faces inwards at about 12:30
Left bank intake cam front (#1 cyl.)lobe faces inwards at about11:30

Right bank intake cam BACK (#6 cyl.) lobe faces outwards at about 10.30
Right bank exhaust cam FRONT (#1. cyl.) lobe faces outwards at about 01:30

Check the marks that John posted-you cannot miss them-set them up with the cam bearing cap parting line,or put another way,flat with the cam cover head surface...

This way you wont be out by 180 deg . either-not that it matters when you run wasted spark ignition.

[cchan]

Thanks for the pictures and the advise. It makes sense that you use these marks to position the cams correctly after you have the engine at TDC. We never had a special tool for my 426 Hemi or other engines that we worked on.

What is the logic behind having these cam timing tools if you can just use the marks on the cam. Is the purpose of the cam timing tool to make sure that the mark is in the correct position in relationship to the cam lobes?