joey
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Post by joey »

ahh, the 2.8l gleich motor ! now you're talking mate !

who wouldn't want one of these... and yes, your assumption is right, the 3l has bigger valves, nothing you can't fix on a 2.5 tho.. sure - it would be easier to combine a 2.5 and a 3.0's engine parts, but either way - you're in for a bit of machining !

i *think* the short cut method would be to rebuild yourself a 3.0 motor with a 2.5l crank and off-set the rods to get the compression back up. might like to ask the experts around here. Of course, most people dont bother and go straight to the 3.0.. who knows? mayb one day you'll find a nice 3.0 with an undersized crank? = project time !! :lol:

but first, i would consider what my objectives are exactly, you should know that the 2.5 12v is capable of plenty of high rpm power.. just ask jules, that guy has pulled around 250hp outta it. 100hp per liter.. not bad..

the 2.8 is meant to combine most of the torque of the 3.0, with the revviness of the 2.5, with a sound totally its own.. it would be an interesting project indeed.

of the tensioner, i wouldn't worry so much. check for leaks and aim to replace the belt more often - such is alfa ownership. I only personally know of one person who had his belt slip and should have lost his engine - in the end, he escaped significant damage. The majority of others around these parts haven't had any big problems with it AFAIK. I dunno, chasing this conversion for 20kw and to escape the original hydraulic de-tensioner seems a bit of over kill. Hell, us aussie alfisti have known no other device for the gtv6, and i dare say those remaining in sympathetic hands are still going strong.

of gearing, for the street, for me there is no other option than the 2.0 TS gearbox from the 75. Simple <$300 single plate replacement clutch, nice ratios (off the top of my head 2.88, 1.72, 1.23, 0.95, 0.78 ) so it has nice close ratios (same as the 3.0 milano), and of course a clutch type 4.1:1 lsd. but it does come down to taste of course, some *like* the cruisy 3.55 ratio of the 3.0, and some would prefer to pay for the original twin-plate... whatever rocks your boat. personally i love the longer first and second gear of the TS box, real useful for the revvy 2.5, and i think the stock motor doesn't have enough pull for the long legged 3.0 box, he'l not even the 3.0 does IMO.

good luck with whatever you decide. 8)
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AlfaTipo
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Post by AlfaTipo »

Hey Joey,

I wasn't familiar with the Gleich 2.8 motor. I read some of the old GTV6.org posts. Interesting.

I have real reservations with the 3.x conversions. There is a sweet spot that combines all the qualities we cherish but it is different for all of us.

Power, weight, gear ratios, control, feedback, handling, brakes, you name it. It all has to come to a personal preference; a sweet spot.

I have owned quite a few rides, the best have been a few Alfa's and Lancia's for dynamics. I also had a '96 Dodge neon ACR Coupe and a '87 Isuzu Trooper and currently have a '94 Dodge Dakota pickup. Love(d) 'em! Most of the rest are forgotten.

I have never had a car modified to what I wanted (usually cash or lack thereof). Gripped by a mid-life crisis (split with the wife, sold the house packed everything that I could into the pickup and headed for LA listening to Neil Young), I am back to Alfa's. My 2nd and 3rd GTV6. One really has to go, but I really want to build something I can sit back and say,

"That is a damn fine car. Wish I had built the 3.2 GTA motor, but still a damn fine car".

It's only money, right?
Jef
85 GTV6 'Gina G2' Shankle cams and headers Resting Serious rebuild in the future
85 GTV6 'Gina G3' Sold but missed.
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Post by SydneyJules »

Hahaha Joey come to Auto Italia this year and I wont drink the night beforehand, and actually take you for a spin! I was a mess this year!!!

Tipo, I have an "almost as far as you can go with it" 2.5, and when you get to here, it's actually a little depressing! My car goes very well for a 2.5, but my only motor options from here are Six Throttles, new ECU, and up to a 3.3 conversion.

I understand your desire to build something unique for yourself, and it's that desire that's led me down my path at the moment.

So I have around 250-260hp of 2.5, with an 8200 redline. I have a 75 box with a 4.3:1 LSD and a fair whack of lockup, which makes U-Turns impossible. Have to drop the clutch and hook it :wink:

Car weighs 1180kg. Need to get it to 1000kg. Power starts to really come in at around 5k, so it's a narrow power band. Great from 2nd gear on, but standard GTV6 ratios would be better I think. Yeah sure its torquey to a point, but it's 2.5 seamless urge, not 3.0 strokey urge....

To do more to her means that bigger valves, new ECU, new crank rods and pistons- damn, to do it all would cost me another 10 grand minimum. I may as well go turbo 4cyl, because I will get more torque and more HP....

So I guess in the next 4-5 years I will have pulled my back seat out, removed my rear window frames and have had lexan windows put in. Pulled all the sound deadening out and door trims out, and gotten a fibreglass hatch to go with my CF bonnet, had a cage put in, be running it on Semi Slicks, and at least have a new ECU. My car is not a good street car, so there is no use pretending it is- it's a pseudo track car, so to take the weight out and perhaps spend $$$$ on a close ratio straight cut box will make it a fiercely competitive piece of kit.

Then, why would I go that length? Im likely gonna cut the car up for more HP down the track later on anyway- I think I will just put my motor into a 105 or Fiat X-19 with a 164 TS gearbox....

If I were to do a streeter, I would start buying as much rubber door trim as possible, get the car ready for a bare metal spray job, and interior retrim in leather. Fit a 24v motor with A/C, get some extractors and an exhaust, an ECU, a 75 TS gearbox, 17" 3 piece wheels, and RS Racing suspension.

It's cool to have something different, and Im glad that I do, but with everything these SA guys are offering, you'd be mad not to take them up on a big bore 24v. Cheaper than having my 2.5 built over again!
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by joey »

lol jules - i'ld have to be pretty damn bored to make the 500+km trip for an alfa show.. but who knows, i'm just that implusive i may just do it !

the screwed up thing is if i did, that would be twice in 12 months that i would have travelled 500km each way ! quite stupid really when you consider i haven't been to a show in melbourne since 2002 ! especially since the last one was like 7km from my joint... :oops:

i would love to see the beast in full flight tho.. mayb one of these days you'll venture out this way... 2.5 atmo vs 2.5TT and the other stuff hanging aorund here, god-damn ! :twisted:

i totally agree with the 2.8, its sounds bloody interesting... i just googled this site...

http://breakbeat.gmxhome.de/alfetta/spe ... leich.html

my german is bad, but from what i can tell it lent its name from a tuner called "Dietrich Gleich" and wasn't the name of a tuning shop or nick-name for the engine (die sogenannten "gleich" motor!) as i had imagined (gleich translates into direct or something like that, especially is some sentence usages, can be interpreted as "quickly" or "right away" or something - maybe not - i have no idea really)

the fellow according to this site thought increasing the capacity of the 2.5 was the key to making a healthier engine all round. He did this by using forgies (90mm) which brought up the capacity to 2.8l and bumped up the compression to 10.5:1. As far as i can tell thats all he did to the original engine ! this gave it slightly peakier torque, and max hp of around 190hp at 6300rpm.

later on performance was increased to 243hp @ 7300rpm by increasing the valves (both intake and exhaust) and by fitting a sharper cam (320 duration) and a new air intake and complete new exhaust.

so yeah - pretty interesting.. but a fairly expensive way to find power i would imagine. unique for sure. Thats right, life is but fleeting ! whats money? :lol:
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Post by SydneyJules »

Yeah that is my cheapest option too. Can keep my cams that way. Apparently 3.0 pistons and liners on 2.5 rods work out with 10.5:1 compression.

I'd get bigger valves made while the head was off. It's a fair bit of money for a nigh on 290hp motor....

Who am I kidding- I wont be even thinking about engines again until I repay my debt to parents as of February!!!!

$65k buys a mean GTV6TT....

I, long run, want enough to have to buy an ex Formula Alfa GTV6 with arches, cage, suspension and slicks, cut the tunnel out and fit a Getrag and big bore 12v 3.0 TT so I can run against Sport Sedans!

Ahh dreams!
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by 4SFED4 »

Jules,

May I know the reason you long for a 3.0TT and not for a 3.7TT?

-Brian
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Post by SydneyJules »

Haha well noted Brian!

I couldnt race a 3.7TT in any class out here! Well I could race formula Alfa, but as no body out here has serious HP on the circuit, it would be a little boring. In fact the most powerful Alfa powered Alfa doing the country right now would have to be Paul K's 1.8T. No offence on GPTT, but his car is a little animal!
All the guys out here go lightweight, good handling, and naturally aspirated.

Sport Sedans, however state that you are only allowed one form of power addition for a given capacity, so if you wanted to go 12v 3.7 TT, your minimum weight would be in the order of 1200kgs.

Or, for a 3.0 12v TT, you would be set at around 1000kgs, I think.

Conversely, multiple cams per bank are considered a power-multiplier, so for my friends to run a turbo 1991cc BMW block with an F1 Twin Cam 16v head, they must be a minimum weight of 1100kgs I think. Turbo + Multi cams = NO!!! + Cubic Inches= NO NO NO!!!!

It's because the Chevy guys couldn't handle it when Beninca smashed them all down the straight in a Nord with a Mack turbo pushing nearly 35psi. Then he stopped, and the rotaries started slamming them.

Now I wanna slam them!
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Post by 4SFED4 »

Funny Jules... thanks for the info.

We have NOTHING like that here in the States... wish we did!

-Brian
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Post by joey »

^ yep, thats true... he is the man... IIRC, his 2.0 n/a gtv came third in targa tassie, pretty damn impressive when you consider the kind of cars and financing they got for that international race !

3rd outright in the first race and 9th overall - of course, 1st in class ! back in '95.

3.7 vs 3.0 TT, its all rather academic isn't it? if its a pure race car dial up the boost and run some meth injection ! hehe

jesus, what would a 3.0 do with twin turbos? the mind boggles, a 3.7? on a n/a i can barely understand.. but TT?

you're all crazy. :shock:
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Post by SydneyJules »

Hey Brian, they are my fave class of racer we have- much more interesting than the Ford-Holden(GM) V8 Supercar series, which is being modelled on NASCAR in terms of publicity stunts and crap like that- two make silhouette series with set front suspension, diff ratios, and tyres.

For a real race car, check this baby out for some food for thought!

http://www.bavariacars.com.au/motorsport.phtml
Tubeframe chassis, now with a Hollinger 6 speed sequential gearbox, AP Six Spots, the frame all custom fabricated by my mate's dad in their workshop. The Cams are driven gears.... sounds ANGRY!!!

A renowned dyno shop began tuning the car in around 1994, when it had a Haltech F9 and statically locked ignition timing, and they had tuned many competition Supercharged 300+Ci V8s.... they knew what good HP was.

Anyway, the first dyno chart they ever got from this shop (Injection Perfection) is labelled "Pussy BMW 1991cc 4 Cyl Turbo"

The chart reaches a peak of 503hp. Down the bottom is a calculation of the friction losses done by his dad, and a flywheel estimate of 682hp.

These days they are turning close to 560 rwhp. The big Ci Blow V8s (ie 383 Ci with Vortech competition Blowers) turn around 500-600 here, and then go and crank out 800-900rwhp at some hairdresser's dyno day.... Fast and the Furious Sh*t!!!!

I see it that a 12v 3.0 with monoblocked liners, carillos, ported head and higher lift cams with around 7.5:1 compression could swallow around 600hp worth of GT25 airflow at 20psi lap after lap, on pump fuel (A sport sedan requirement- no more AVGAS) as long as the radiator and oil cooler were good, and the pressures and flow levels were kept up. No stupid RPM limits, just boost for torque, and good solid HP.

Yeah sure you would need a front mounted box, but I think a car like this could be made to be a mid-level state Sport Sedan for decent outlay, and it would tear any formula Alfa car to shreds. It would be heavy in terms of equipment, so it would need glassed guards and lexan windows to bring weight back down, but Im quite sure that with better ancillaries than what I think will "do", you could dyno it for it's "Best possible", then bring down the boost level to a more appropriate level, and start racing.

Budget? Maybe 40k... better spent on a racer than on a new car that loses 15% value as soon as you drive out of the dealership...!
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by SydneyJules »

Beninca's Sport sedan was nucking futs, not what I can afford to have built!

The Targa GTV was a monoblocked 8v TS with slide throttle injection.

It was nucking futs too!

I want somewhere in between what I have and nucking futs!
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by 4SFED4 »

Jules... reading your post it is obvious to me we really need to sit down and drain a few beers!

-Brian
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Post by SydneyJules »

Hahaha I would certainly love to Brian! I dont mind beer at all :wink:

I'm planning a little trip stateside via Europe (or vice versa) for '06, so I can catch the last round of airshows to be flown by the F-14, so I guess Ohio is now also on my list! Besides, you're not too far from Chicago there, are you?

Loved it about 6 years ago, so now Im over 21, methinks it'll be even better!
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Bosch?

Post by Romeo »

Can that very nice throttle body be used with the original Motronic injectors and setup?
Mario
Alfa Romeo is part of my family, or am I a member of the Alfa Romeo family???
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Are you talking about the 6 ITBs from Glenwood?

Post by junglejustice »

Romeo, if you are asking about the 6 ITBs from Glenwood, then yes, that is a setup for the 24 Valve engines and they do fit them well,,,

You can use stock injectors, but since this is mainly a setup for larger bore engines, consider the larger intake runners and modified 50mm GTV6/Milano/75 intake manifold... Depends - what other engine mods do you have now/planning in the future?

As for the Motronic - probably not - you dump the AFM with this conversion (and why not - very restrictive), so you need to go to a stand-alone system or some variant, running MAP or other....
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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