ALFAGTV6.COM

[GTV27]

MD's list is v.good (I think he just described his car - but I also think his is LIGHTER than that!)

A V6 will be at least 100kg up on a 4, with most of that over the front axle. This is a considerable disadvantage and if you were to go through with the "MD list", a 4 cyl is probably a better place to start

(???is it safe to say that on "alfagtv6.com????). but since you've already got the v6, why not start with that anyway....will make a nice noise for the racers to listen to as they go past (which is what I've been told about mine anyhow!)

However, a v6 will be pretty bloody frustrating until you can put a lot more spring rate into it front and rear. New coils for the back are cheap but you will have to ante up for some new torsion bars (or coil overs) if you seriously want to both enjoy it on the track and make your tyres last (ie don't just shred their shoulders). Ask me how many sprints I did in mine before it got new springs. (hint - it is a prime number between zero and two that rhymes with won!).

I've never tracked a alfetta without an LSD, so don't know how important that is, but suspect you want one of those too, but maybe that could wait for later.

Put some emphasis on seating position (ie being able to drive with bent elbows for leverage) and a decent race seat too (possibly the FIRST thing to do). Space the wheel, bend the gear lever, ditch the adjusters - do whatever you have to do to be comfortable behind the wheel. The steering loads up in these things once you get enough camber and caster on them with r-spec tyres - the olde Stirling Moss spec driving position ain't gunna cut it on the track.

[Micke]

Is the V6 really that much heavier?

It's hard to imagine. I have mine in bits and pieces so I should weigh them all.
Just as a feeling there shouldn't be more than maybe 50 kg difference.

[GTV27]

on a level playing field, it'd be 100kg, give or take 20kgs - eg road car specs are 1150 vs 1250 for nuova gtv's

is not just the engine, otherstuff that would add up: propshaft/donuts, brakes, radiator, fuel tank, clutch, ...?

[Mats]

100Kg is a lot of metal. That must be way off, I'd say 30-40Kg difference, tops.

[Micke]

Checked some weights today.

24V6 / 2.0 TS
Block w sleeves 32 / 29
Cylinder head(s) 41 / 24
Crank 23 / 20
Intake plenum 5.8 / 7.5
Oil pan 4.9 / 7

In all I think difference is smaller than 50 kg.

My 50 ct is that if you cannot compensate for a couple of kg in handling there's something wrong. I've driven better cars than GTV with loads more weight.
Not that I'd like heavy cars.

[Mats]

Are those "dressed" head weights? With valves/cams and such?

[Greg Gordon]

This may not be scientific, but when we swapped out a 3.0 V6 for a 2.0 4cyl in a Milano Before we re-adjusted the torsion bars. the front end sat a lot higher. With my full body weight (205lbs at the time) on the front cross support by the radiator, it settled back down to about where it was with the V6. Based on that I would believe that the weight difference with everything, ready to run is about 200 lbs.

The car handles a lot better with the 4cyl, and I thought it was good before! It's also easier to steer (non power steering).

Greg Gordon,
www.hiperformancestore.com

[Zamani]

Micke,

You've driven an S2K on the ring right? Wow that car is one great handling car! On very wide tires (I think one of the S2K I ran with had 255 at the back, RE-01R street tires, very modified suspension), it was 2-3 seconds faster than my car with R888.

How to get my 75 handling like that

Well I have to make the car W I D E, at least 2" wider (spacers), widen the fenders, and do something about the wheel well close to the passenger kick panel. Rears should be ok with 1" spacers once I add the cambered dedion.

Oh yeah, a stiffer front (chassis and suspension would probably help too. Will do that inner fender brace as per Maurizio.

[Micke]

Head weights.

Lemme see. The Nord head I put on the scales today was complete. Cams, valves, cam cover. 23.9. (sorry. was NOT TS)

V6 I measured 15.8 and 17.4. With valves, springs and retainers. No cams.
Cams are 2012 g each (anybody tried gun drilling them?)
Pulleys 788 g each.



The S2k is great handling indeed. But not better than my GTV. Faster of course due to power and tires. But easiness is about the same. We used GT3 front slicks all around (240/630R18).


Get the 75 to handle!!
You have a point. With sticky tires the height/width ratio isn't good. It will load the outer wheels a lot if we go above 1.3 G.
Do what I'm doing to my GTV. 15 cm wider in the front and 20 in the back.
Remove all the weight you can (the higher you lighten the better) and tune the suspension to fit.

[MR2 Zig]

I have a feeling the weight difference between the 6 and 4 may not be a whole lot, BUT it is a big deal with where that weight is in the car. 50+ kilos all the way out at the front end is a bigger thing to lose than 50 k right in the middle.

[MD]

With limited track experience and a limited range of Alfas that race on our local tracks my opinion really doesn't amount to much but I will offer it anyway.

What I have GENERALLY noticed with the V6's is a somewhat lesser ability to negotiate tight corners as well as the 4cylinder cousin and so the outcome of a given race can be track dependent epsecially if the V6 gets a chance to unwind the legs.

If two coupes were race prepared to exactly the same level of treatments and weight minimisation and one car was a 4 banger and the other was a 6, my gut feeling is that the 6 should win.

For whatever reason locally, that has not proved to be the case. Whether this is driver and skill related, I cannot say.

[Mats]

If we lift our heads beyond the Alfa sfere and have a look you soon realize that most cars are quite a bit front heavy but still manage to be freakishly fast around racetracks. Front/rear weight distribution is definetly not what decides how fast you can drive around track.

[Zagato]

Also there is a huge difference on what racetrack you use the car, the Nürburgring
can use a car that is a little noseheavy, as it gets very stable in high speeds, and the turns is quite big. On the other hand a small clubcircuit need a car that turns in very well, but can be a little nervous sometimes, due to the much lower speeds.
Also the power and topspeed is not so problematic.

[Zamani]

Hey Mats,

Not just Alfa sphere, but 116 sphere,

Just look at these old videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVfrMp_6pMQ

Or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL1XocMhpM4

FWD Alfas just owning the RWD ones around the turn.

Well I'm definitely making my car wider that's probably a good place to start for a budget racer

[ar4me]

Well I'm definitely making my car wider that's probably a good place to start for a budget racer

Zamani,
Sent me an email if you are interested in custom width Dedion with adjustable camber
Jes