ALFAGTV6.COM

[MD]

Is there a budding engineer in you? Do you go to bed tossing and turning with car ideas in your head? Are you the creative type who would just love do something inspired and radical with a 116 GTV?

Well, guess what? Your prayers have been answered. Here's your chance to form a design team with this global forum to do something slightly insane. Put in your two cents worth using your own ideas. There are no bounds.

It's just an exercise in interaction for a racing application.

Your mission (should you choose to accept it) is to come up with a design to move the V6 donk from the front to the rear. You can mount it east- west or north- south. Perhaps transplant a complete 164 with gearbox and all to the rear. A midship V6 or a rear engine V6. Your choice. Boosted or naturally aspirated? Two wheel /all wheel drive?
Your only limitation is your imagination.

Nearly as crazy as building and Alfa parts motorbike but that's been done before. Never seen a midship GTV6 but I would like to.

Got you thinking? Tell us what that is..

I would say if we collectively put our heads together not only would it create a fresh site interest but would keep you guessing who comes up with what next and we just might come up with something great.

If it is good enough, some bent Saarf Africaanni or a slightly looney OZ merchant just might build it .. but my guess is that those even more twisted Finns would beat us all to the punch....sheit, I forgot about those insane Dutchmen:D

Oh crap, I'm feeling the pressure already....

[la_strega_nera]

911 Transaxle, scratch built independent rear end (probably using rear uprights from GT40 rep manufacture, or a vette).
Twin Turbos, or even a single big one.

Scratch built from the firewall forward, suspension built using parts from stock car suppliers in the USA (Coleman/SCP/Afco).

Fuel tankage stuffed between the drivers compartment firewall and the engine, probably a U shaped tank to give a little more clearance/volume.

Plexi rear window with F40 style venting.
Plexi rear side windows, one piece replacing the entire rear sides.
No Bumpers, plastic bumper GTV airdam. Upper Grill blanked off, all cooling airflow through cutouts in the airdam. Flat bottomed from the Airdam back. Single central outlet in the bonnet F40LM style.
Alfetta GT rear beaver panel with exhaust cutout removed, area between tail lights replaced with Mesh and exhaust pipes, Ala F40.
Stock Wheelarch architecture front, Rears raised to allow a flat stance.
*black* 17x10s all round, AR501 paint.

[la_strega_nera]

Damnit... now you've got me thinking about building this.... argh.

[la_strega_nera]

I just remembered, back when I had La Strega, I had this idea for a GTV inspired by the the race prepped Daytonas... Chrome bumper GTV, GTV6 powered but under a flat GTV bonnet (so a 164 plennum or a low crossover setup), no bumpers, early front spoiler, pair of little Daytona style outlets on the bonnet, scoop down infront of the rear wheels & side exit exhaust just like the comp daytona, plexi windows, fat 15" wheels (5 spoke compomotives or similar), just generally stripped...
The F40 inspired one I described above would be faster and alot more work though....

hmmm. There's a Donor car on Ebay... pity its in Sydney.

[Barry]

Giocattolo.

[la_strega_nera]

A few build ideas:
Front suspension based on Roundy car parts. Fabricated steel Upright:


C5 Corvette front suspension, as fitted to a mid engined GTM kit car:


C5 Corvette Rear suspension, as above. 911 transaxle, LS1 Chev.

[MD]

Great to see some stunning ideas flowing so soon.

I think an early steering correction is needed though:

Don't want to put a dampner on any enthusiasm but I would suggest that to keep our "Project Alfa" all Alfa would see a more challenging and probably more satisfying end result by keeping it in the family so to speak. Otherwise it will quickly become a totally unrecognisable Alfa GTV and lose the relationship with this forum which in the main is about the GTV6

The Giocattolo is certainly in the ballpark but its not a GTV and ultimately runs a Holden V8. As good as the car is, it would have been more gratifying to see it all Alfa in my opinion. Buy hey, the guys who gottem say their worth gold !

Nevertheless, I see where you are coming from Bazza.

Here's some pics of it for those not familiar with this Oz production car:

[la_strega_nera]

Great to see some stunning ideas flowing so soon.

I think an early steering correction is needed though:

Don't want to put a dampner on any enthusiasm but I would suggest that to keep our "Project Alfa" all Alfa would see a more challenging and probably more satisfying end result by keeping it in the family so to speak. Otherwise it will quickly become a totally unrecognisable Alfa GTV and lose the relationship with this forum which in the main is about the GTV6

To me, what makes an Alfa and alfa is the Engine, and the looks, so I see a couple of problems with that approach....

Transaxles: There isn't an Alfa transaxle worth squat. 164/156 etc are short on ratios, LSDs, power handling capabilities, and force you into a transverse packaging solution, which nobody wants. Think about what has to be done to change a timing belt on a 164/156 etc.....

Front uprights: Alfa uprights are all Heavy/short Bj to BJ/ fixed steering arms (unless you go to a 105 series) and have small stubs that will flex in a car with any real capability. Brake upgrades are painfull. Did I mention they're heavy and they flex?

Front Wishbones: Yay, cast steel or stamped steel. If you're going to go to the effort of making a mid engined GTV6, you might as well fix the front end geometry. If you're going to fix the front end geometry, you might as well use some real wishbones.

Rear uprights: You really don't want to be shackled with having to use 164 uprights converted with an upper Ball joint... Heavy, short in the bottom end, generally compromised. Getting the rear toe change to behave itself when you have to run a fixed toe link is fun.

You're talking about moving the engine to the back seat, so why stop there? Think more along the ProCar 164 (or even the Lancia 032) lines than something cobbled together out of the parts bins and the thing will ultimately be more capable, faster, lighter and easier/cheaper to maintain.
One of the things that proved to be a limitation in the Giacattalo's handling (as with the Ford SHOgun and Renault 5 Turbos) was being stuck with the factory strut front suspension... oh, and the lower suspension pickups being mounted to the engine/transaxle assembly, which was soft mounted....

In terms of the front end, there are so many advantages to a tube framed fron end with either the vette or roundy round parts.
You can fix the front end geometry *properly* (ie design it right in the first place). No bandaids, and removing the front torsion bars and chassis rails and torsion bar crossmember from the monocoque will let you get the thing lower and get a better flat bottom.
Bigger brakes are easy.
Choice of wheels isn't as limited.
Less unsprung weight with the alloy Corvette units.
Much stiffer uprights/hubs.
Replacement Ball joints/bearings etc are peanuts.

Keeping it "All alfa" would be challenging, yeah, in that the final product would ultimately be "challenged". I know someone who set out to build a mid engined sports racer that was "all alfa" in its construction... through development he's down to the engine and gearbox being the remaining alfa parts... I just wouldn't ever be satisfied if all i did was stuff the V6 with a 164/156 trans in the back seat, especially knowing that for less effort I could have stuffed the same into a Fiat X1/9, or for a little more effort done the job properly.

Engineering is about compromises:
How compromised are you prepared for the outcome to be?

[Maurizio]

First I quote Colin Chapman: "add some lightness"

And yes there is a dutch guy already working on it...... this came along on the dutch alfa forum.




http://www.benvn.nl/7/7-pag-alfa75.htm

A pity the guy doesn't have real experience with transaxles, he keeps the front in OE form

[Barry]

Mike,Holden engine only made its appearance much later on..Alfa v6`s were the design from the beginning..

I did a mid mount Alfasud rally car ..gees..some time in the 80`s..
Pre point and shoot camera though...bloody driver rolled it within 200 meters from the first stage start!! fcuker..

[Mats]

Mid engine? Have you ever seen a GTV without a rear seatpad? That bump in the tunnel under the front part of the seat is where the clutch is. Even with a gears-in-back transaxle as in the pics above I doubt there is room to fit a V6 in front of it without moving the rear wheels.
Also, with a transaxle like that you need to ditch the de-Dion setup.

I would much rather have a front mount mid engine car to be honest...

[MD]

la_strega_nera
Man you are putting in a lot of effort here. Hope the guys appreciate it.

Maurizio

What a great link. Why can't I get a workshop like that? Interesting offshoot ideas but it's not rear/mid engine

Bazza

Yeah I know it started with a V6 but they gave up on it. For better balance, I don't know why they didn't choose to use an insanely boosted 4 banger?

Mats

I don't see that the transmission has to be a transaxle. It can be any Alfa transmission from any period that may do the job. Frankly, it could be chain drive,prop drive or rubber belts (DAF) for all that it matters as long as the KEY components were Alfa. At the end of the day, inevitably it would have non standard wheels, dampers, sway bars, springs, etc to deal with the power/handling so there has to be room for some sway in the specs dont you think?

[junglejustice]

I was scolded like the red-headed step-child a while back somewhere for suggesting something as grotesque as a mid-engined GTV6 - my idea was a bit more simple than a clean-slate, new rear design and I still think that I may build this some day...

For starters (and on a budget) - so that one does not have to reinvent the wheel so to speak - you take the complete front sub-frame assembly from a 164 B/L/S/QV/LS/Super/Q (12 valve or 24 valve) - everything - and move it to the rear. Dump the DeDion, 116 transaxle and everything back there and build that sub-frame assembly in back there. Now you have toe/camber/castor, a strut-design, disc brakes, hubs, side-shafts, anti-roll-bar points - all sorted - the whole shooting-match!

We'll deal with the steering later, but in short - you keep the front of the GTV6 setup pretty much the same (maybe get rid of the torsion-bars, reinforce the towers like we did on the 3.7s and run pure coil-overs up there), ditch the 12 valve, DeDion and 116 RWD setup completely and now run the transverse sub-frame and FWD engine AND the transverse FWD transaxle now sitting AHEAD of the rear axles - creating essentially a mid-engined GTV6!

Think fire-wall right behind the front seats and the engine and gearbox about where the rear seats and the trunk used to be. Think louvered plexi rear-hatch - a la F40! Think 156 GTA 6-speed 3.7:1 ratio gearbox (like I am currently installing in my 164 - bolts right up to the 12 valvce or the 24 valve motor!) Think direct cable shift-linkage and no drive-shaft and no more crunchy transaxle. Think 3.45/3.7 litres or even TT...

The engine-bay gets closed of on the bottom, the spare (and likely the battery) gets moved over there and a nice luggage-area developed with what is left! Coil-over suspension from RSRacing with custom spring-rates (he's got all the adjustable sway-bar in the world available for this thing!)

[ar4me]

Someone is doing it here:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/boxer-e ... post283699
to an Alfa sprint to make a rally car - the 164 subframe in the back. BTW, don't let the tittle of the thread mislead you.
Jes

[la_strega_nera]

For starters (and on a budget) - so that one does not have to reinvent the wheel so to speak - you take the complete front sub-frame assembly from a 164 B/L/S/QV/LS/Super/Q (12 valve or 24 valve) - everything - and move it to the rear. Dump the DeDion, 116 transaxle and everything back there and build that sub-frame assembly in back there. Now you have toe/camber/castor, a strut-design, disc brakes, hubs, side-shafts, anti-roll-bar points - all sorted - the whole shooting-match!

I don't think you quite grasp how bad it will be with struts and decent width rubber... The only way to make the struts work on the rear is make the thing really stiff in roll, and thats a bit counter productive. If you *have to* use the 164 subframe as a starting point, at least convert the strut to a double wishbone (replace the strut insert with a tube with a closed and and a ball joint). There's a reason the Stratos' were considered unpredictable, and this also matches the experience of my friends mini canam car (it started out with a strut rearend).