- Maurizio
- Verde
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:49 am
- Location: the Netherlands, 153.1km from the N'ring :-)
Found the pictures, everyting adjustable. The added leaf springs make the dion tube to an IRS
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Banned.. ? Daily donky.. ==> BMW 325d
E36M3 (3.0) Ringtool ==> definitely BANNED!
AR 75 TS Ringtool '90, AR Spider 2000 veloce '79
E36M3 (3.0) Ringtool ==> definitely BANNED!
AR 75 TS Ringtool '90, AR Spider 2000 veloce '79
- SydneyJules
- Verde
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Sydney
Arrrggghh, that looks like semi trailing arms. It's not is it ??
Bad things (worse than Dedion) happen in roll and bump with those things. Ask anyone with a pre 993 Porsche 911 about rear suspension woes.
The only way to go is double wishbones if you're going to do it. A skyline or mazda MX5 setup would work quite nicely but who's going to do it first and show the rest of us ?
Bad things (worse than Dedion) happen in roll and bump with those things. Ask anyone with a pre 993 Porsche 911 about rear suspension woes.
The only way to go is double wishbones if you're going to do it. A skyline or mazda MX5 setup would work quite nicely but who's going to do it first and show the rest of us ?
- Maurizio
- Verde
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:49 am
- Location: the Netherlands, 153.1km from the N'ring :-)
This works like double wishbones. I had to think about it a bit when I saw the pictures the fist time, but its just brilliant. Like I said , it looks like the autodelta engineers tried to hide the irs for the tech inprection.Daniel wrote:Arrrggghh, that looks like semi trailing arms. It's not is it ??
Sorry Jules, no more pics, this is all they had on their webpage. Would love to see some more.
Banned.. ? Daily donky.. ==> BMW 325d
E36M3 (3.0) Ringtool ==> definitely BANNED!
AR 75 TS Ringtool '90, AR Spider 2000 veloce '79
E36M3 (3.0) Ringtool ==> definitely BANNED!
AR 75 TS Ringtool '90, AR Spider 2000 veloce '79
- SydneyJules
- Verde
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Sydney
Perhaps something custom based on this stuff could be welded to the transaxle, or cradled around it, and welded to the floor?
http://www.edge.au.com/product_doubleasusp.htm
You would need to make sure the angles all worked properly...
Yeah- a Skyline rear end is still probably the easiest solution... and better than early BMW trailing arm stuff...
http://www.edge.au.com/product_doubleasusp.htm
You would need to make sure the angles all worked properly...
Yeah- a Skyline rear end is still probably the easiest solution... and better than early BMW trailing arm stuff...
Last edited by SydneyJules on Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fixing it bit by bit....
- SydneyJules
- Verde
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Sydney
Yeah... I know what you mean...
I can tell that in the end I will be speaking to my friend's dad about it all (Mechanical Engineer BMW guys with the F1 Turbo Sport Sedan)...
I cant find any drawings of the skyline or silvia rear end... did find a Lotus 7 replica site with De Dion drawings though hahaha
Fuck Im gonna spend alot of money on this bloody car one day!
I can tell that in the end I will be speaking to my friend's dad about it all (Mechanical Engineer BMW guys with the F1 Turbo Sport Sedan)...
I cant find any drawings of the skyline or silvia rear end... did find a Lotus 7 replica site with De Dion drawings though hahaha
Fuck Im gonna spend alot of money on this bloody car one day!
Fixing it bit by bit....
- SydneyJules
- Verde
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Sydney
- SydneyJules
- Verde
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Sydney
Wow...
Giocattolo Style with VL Walkinshaw Twin Throttle 308 and ZF....
You cant tell me that a De Dion is better than this "because it keeps the rear wheels parallel to the contact surface @ all times"
Now Im just being a dickhead. Yes I know you all thought that from the start!
Yeah I know, Pie in the sky I suppose... except for someone with $$$$$
And in that circumstance, you would build it mid mounted, with a TT 24v 3.7 sitting behind the driver, based on a spaceframe, with inboard front shocks.... like Ricciardello's 350 Chev powered sport sedan GTV....
Giocattolo Style with VL Walkinshaw Twin Throttle 308 and ZF....
You cant tell me that a De Dion is better than this "because it keeps the rear wheels parallel to the contact surface @ all times"
Now Im just being a dickhead. Yes I know you all thought that from the start!
Yeah I know, Pie in the sky I suppose... except for someone with $$$$$
And in that circumstance, you would build it mid mounted, with a TT 24v 3.7 sitting behind the driver, based on a spaceframe, with inboard front shocks.... like Ricciardello's 350 Chev powered sport sedan GTV....
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Fixing it bit by bit....
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- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Jules, Actually the DeDion tube keeps the rear wheels perpendicular to the road at all times. Parallel would be really bad.
Of course a stock DeDion setup doesn't compare to an ultra high budget exotic car type rear suspenion. However I can't think of any cars built in the GTV6's era or price range that have an independent suspension that works better.
Of course a stock DeDion setup doesn't compare to an ultra high budget exotic car type rear suspenion. However I can't think of any cars built in the GTV6's era or price range that have an independent suspension that works better.
Julian take a look here ... again some crazy swe guy is making lotus 7 kit car with TS and transaxle ... very interesting IRS double wishbones
useing dedion part ... looks funny
http://illustrera.se/ovrigt/ovrigt_02.htm
btw scandinavians are funny people .. they have may be the worst weather (long winter) in EU ... but are absolutely car freaks
useing dedion part ... looks funny
http://illustrera.se/ovrigt/ovrigt_02.htm
btw scandinavians are funny people .. they have may be the worst weather (long winter) in EU ... but are absolutely car freaks
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- Platinum
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:05 pm
- Location: Sunny Euro-Brisney
Honestly, the gains over a well setup De-Dion aren't worth the effort, especiall if big HP is your goal. The advantage that DeDions and Live axles have is they don't gain negative camber as the car squats under acceleration, which prevents them from toasting the inside of the rear tires. You can of course limit this ala most modern race cars by simply making the thing so damn stiff there is no camber changes. I've ridden in a V8 Supercar, and have to say they have no lack of rear end grip thanks to their well setup live axle.
All the "off the shelf" type solutions (ie stuff taken from existing roadcars) are fairly limited. If you were going to be serious about it, you'd use a setup much like a F5000 or a modern sports sedan, or even GT40 replica based bits. Things like C5 corvette uprights with a lower arm, a pair of trailing links and an upper arm, with good geometry. Byt the time you've gottten that far, you've so outclassed the front end geometry that you might aswell redesign the front end.
If you look closely, that Giocattalo rear is really sucky. A few years back I had the chance to talk to a guy involved with trying to get one to work (handle) properly with big HP for Targa Tazzy. Basically the lower wishbones are mounted to the gearbox cradle, which if you look is mounted via rubber to the chassis. Naturally this walks around under power and under cornering loads and the geometry changes get pretty nasty. No wonder the designer is EX mclaren(?)
To me the best solution is to find the lightest DeDion you can (that ultra light alfetta guy found one 6kg lighter than the others?), or have a lightweight unit fabbed up, relocate the watts (centre pivot on the chassis) or go to a mumford link (if you dopn't want to trade ground clearance for roll centre height) remembering the height of the front de dion pivot has an effect too (i'd personally look at a different locating arm arrangement), keep the brakes inboard with some decent ducting, and sort the frontend out
Put some money in well setup Shocks. Off the shelf is always a compromise. Dig up a set of s/h Bilsteins and get the rebuilt/revalved to suit your spring rates and motion ratios... makes a huge difference. There's a really good mob in Sydney that do them too.
The simple change from Konis to Bilsteins made a huge difference in my GTV... Konis just outright suck. Too stiff on the small fast bumps giving a harsh ride, too soft in controling body roll type movements.... you'd almost swear they were just a straight orifice damper rather than a modern linear rate or digressive rate shim stack type damper.
Now, if anyone has any ideas on how to make a leaf sprung 600hp Group Nc Falcon handle on 235 wide crossplies, let me know! Far more grunt than grip! And if anyone wants to donate to my race motor fund....
Ben
All the "off the shelf" type solutions (ie stuff taken from existing roadcars) are fairly limited. If you were going to be serious about it, you'd use a setup much like a F5000 or a modern sports sedan, or even GT40 replica based bits. Things like C5 corvette uprights with a lower arm, a pair of trailing links and an upper arm, with good geometry. Byt the time you've gottten that far, you've so outclassed the front end geometry that you might aswell redesign the front end.
If you look closely, that Giocattalo rear is really sucky. A few years back I had the chance to talk to a guy involved with trying to get one to work (handle) properly with big HP for Targa Tazzy. Basically the lower wishbones are mounted to the gearbox cradle, which if you look is mounted via rubber to the chassis. Naturally this walks around under power and under cornering loads and the geometry changes get pretty nasty. No wonder the designer is EX mclaren(?)
To me the best solution is to find the lightest DeDion you can (that ultra light alfetta guy found one 6kg lighter than the others?), or have a lightweight unit fabbed up, relocate the watts (centre pivot on the chassis) or go to a mumford link (if you dopn't want to trade ground clearance for roll centre height) remembering the height of the front de dion pivot has an effect too (i'd personally look at a different locating arm arrangement), keep the brakes inboard with some decent ducting, and sort the frontend out
Put some money in well setup Shocks. Off the shelf is always a compromise. Dig up a set of s/h Bilsteins and get the rebuilt/revalved to suit your spring rates and motion ratios... makes a huge difference. There's a really good mob in Sydney that do them too.
The simple change from Konis to Bilsteins made a huge difference in my GTV... Konis just outright suck. Too stiff on the small fast bumps giving a harsh ride, too soft in controling body roll type movements.... you'd almost swear they were just a straight orifice damper rather than a modern linear rate or digressive rate shim stack type damper.
Now, if anyone has any ideas on how to make a leaf sprung 600hp Group Nc Falcon handle on 235 wide crossplies, let me know! Far more grunt than grip! And if anyone wants to donate to my race motor fund....
Ben