How to solve nasty rattle?

Alfa Romeo GTV6 Forum: Gearbox, Clutch and Driveshaft: How to solve nasty rattle?
By Dennis de Rooy on Unrecorded Date:

Before I took apart my car to restore it all, my gearbox had a nasty rattle. If the clutch was released and the box in neutral it would rattle like a kitchen blender filled with nails.

I need my old cluth as the 75 TS box I bought came without a clutch (wouldn't be wise to keep it with my new 3.0 engine, anyway). I want to get rid of that nasty rattle. Is it in any bearing near the clutch? I need help guys, because I am a gearbox newbie (newbie anything actually).

By dp on Unrecorded Date:

My '84 did the same thing, I think there is a thread somewhere on this forum covering this. I believe it's the throwout bearing - I'd bet Mr. Gordon would know. Greg!?

By Dennis on Unrecorded Date:

Hi dp,

What is a throwout bearing and where is it
located in the gearbox?

By Peter K. on Unrecorded Date:

Slightly increase idle to about 1000RPM's and use a good quality synthetic gear oil,like Castrol TAF-X 75W90,the noise should be (almost) gone, some rattle is considered normal though!

By Vincent on Unrecorded Date:

I thought the idler gear is giving problem with a worn out bearing:) Quite common on Alfa boxes...it disappears when u step on the clutch:)

By keith on Unrecorded Date:

My car is doing the same thing. Only the gearbox has just been rebuilt and a new clutch/release bearing set installed...Very annoying.
I also have been told its a common problem with Alfa. Seems the more wear on the gears and the more overlap on the cams can make the noise louder. (cam overlap gives an uneven idle)
Vincent, are you talking about the reverse idler? Mine measured good on this gear set and the 5th reverse fork was also good.........

By dp on Unrecorded Date:

The throwout bearing is the bearing which the clutch fork acts upon.

Slave cylinder->adjustment rod->forged fork (pivoting on little ball screw)->throwout bearing.

This is a guess, however. Best consult Greg G.

By Dennis de Rooy on Unrecorded Date:

Obi wan Greg Gordon, can you tell me what a throwout bearing is?

It should become obvious as I'm going to pull my gearbox apart tomorrow. How can I check for wear?

By Mr Smith on Unrecorded Date:

Two bearings in the clutch-housing; mine made a similiar noise. The bearings were quite cheap and straightforward to replace.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

OK, if the throwout bearing is bad you will hear a noise with the clutch pushed IN. As DP said it is the bearing the clutch fork acts on and is located in the clutch housing.
The rattling sound you hear with the clutch out and the gearbox in neutral is coming from inside the transaxle itself. This noise should go away as soon as you put a load on the transaxle (ie put in in gear and let the clutch out). If it does then you have nothing to worry about. This noise is quite common, and all the transaxle Alfas I have heard make this sound too one extent or another. Even with everything in the transaxle right on spec there will still be some noise if it is turning with no load on it (ie, engine running, clutch out and in neutral). This is the best answer I can give, I don't know exactly what in the transaxle makes this noise, but I am quite sure it is just the way they are.

By Dennis de Rooy on Unrecorded Date:

Greg, you just made my day! I'm getting a new box in, just have to change cltch including housing.

I'm putting a 75 TS box in and fitting my non-isostatic shifter and speedo drive (and I dont even know what a speedo drive looks like! :)

By Mr Smith on Unrecorded Date:

I disagree, only one car I had (a 75 TS) out of owning alfetta's (2 of), gtv6 (lots of), 75 TS (2 of), 75 2.5 (2 of), 75 3.0 litre (3 of) and a turbo - had a transaxle rattle - this noise is taken care of (normally) by a(likely) or support bearings (rare but can happen) and in my case the clutch housing bearings.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

But what about gearbox whine/hum? When I cruise, with a light load there's a light hum/whine. Is that the carrier bearing in the differential?

By Mr Smith on Unrecorded Date:

It should have been....(normally) by a shim or support bearings (rare but can happen).....

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

Zamani, the gearbox hum is caused by a thrust washer that wears and causes the space between the ring and pinion to increase, thus causing the whine. The washer does not wear on its shoulder so you can mic that part to see what size it was originally, order a new one in that size and you will have fixed the problem. Of course getting to this washer involves taking apart the transaxle.

By Keith on Unrecorded Date:

The rattling gear box.... My gearbox has been rebuilt with the worn bearings replaced and new syncro's. New clutch assembly and housing bearings and the drive shaft completely rebuilt. Also all 3 mounts replaced. Still rattles in neutral. I agree with Greg Gordon, it seems some of them just rattle......

By Jim Ferris on Unrecorded Date:

My 76'Alfetta GT does the same kind of rattle at lower idle. does not do it much above 1000 rpm. I ran it all day at Willow Springs with no issues so I assume it is normal sounding rattle in the front gearcase?

I replaced both support bearings up front in the clutch area, the clutch itself and the throwout bearing too.

with the engine running I've listened carefully to locate the area of the tranny producing the noise. (used a long screwdriver to listen directly to the case) and it seems to come loudest from the clutch area of the front case.

The noise is the same with clutch in or out too. At shut down I get a rattle with the last few turns of the driveshaft back there too. I never get this type of noise with my gtv6's, just the Alfetta?

By Brian H. on Unrecorded Date:

I found out today that the "gurgling -churning" noise that I thought was from my gear-box... is actually something with my fuel-pump !
What to do actually about it is the next question,,,

By neil m on Unrecorded Date:

So let me see if I understand....with the engine idling, gearbox in neutral and the clutch engaged( pedal not pushed in) we are to expect a definite rattle from the transaxle? On my Milano the rattle decreases noticeably when the clutch is disengaged( pedal pushed in). Would a worn drive support bearing cause the same type of noise?

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

No it will not. A noise associated with a bad driveshaft support bearing will not go away with clutch position or engine load.

By neil m on Unrecorded Date:

Then the rattle of the transaxle is "normal"?

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

Neil, I consider a rattle in the gear box normal under the following, and ONLY the following conditions. Engine idling or at a steady r.p.m. trans in neutral, clutch out. Under these conditions a little rattling sound from the gear box is normal, or at least all of the Alfa transaxle cars I have heard have it. It may also rattle when you shut the engine off.

By Brian H. on Unrecorded Date:

If I remember correctly, the PO of my '85 GTV-6 said something about having done some special modification to the throw-out bearing, as he had had noise from it. I didn't think to get details at the time, he said that he thought of doing an article on it though... I don't have any of this noise from my tranny now --just the strange occasional "gurgle" from the fuel pump/tank that I have yet to figure out.

Let me know if anyone is interested, I can try to contact him for more info...
Ciao

By Alister Grigg on Unrecorded Date:

Guys,

Over the years the most common source of this rattle in various Alfetta's and GTV6's I've owned or been involved in has been slack in the splines at centre of the tailshaft or on the clutch input shaft. Clutch out gives just enough drag on the tailshaft to cause it to rattle. Dave Crumps' solution is to pack them with epoxy on assembly. Works well.

Alister

By Peter K. on Unrecorded Date:

Shut the engine of with pressed clutch pedal,no noise....!!

By ralph on Unrecorded Date:

l put my car up on a hoist with the car shut off and put the car in gear l then turned the rear wheels back and forth and noticed that the common rattle noise was comming from the clutch area not the tranny l strongly believe that the rattle noise is due to worn clutch plate springs or excessive play in the splines which fit through the clutch discs but would bet on the clutch plate springs being worn or even cracked. When l get around to it l will remove the clutch and post findings.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

ralph.. do u get light vibration in N reving from
800rpm to 2500/? and it feels from the rear?

i dont get rattle but i feel somthing isnt right in the rear (clutch rear fly area)

donuts are new and installed right so ???

By ralph on Unrecorded Date:

Well today l removed my clutch and investigated the rattle problem. The rattle noise is comming from the clutch disc, these cars have a very strange design compared to a regular clutch. The clutch on my 86 gtv6 has been coverted to the milano single disc design and l regret that the previous owner didn't replace it with the original design. The center splines on the clutch disc have two small springs that was to absorb the initial shock when ingaging the clutch, in my opinion it is a poor design and l am looking into replaceing it with an after market solid disc without these two silly springs on the center disc spline,or back to the twin disc design. l am sure that replaceing the clutch disc to a solid regular type will eliminate this rattle problem. DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THE MILANO CLUTCH HOUSING IS THE SAME AS THE TWIN PLATE DESIGN HOUSING. To answer your question Mr Anonymous no l don't get vibrations at all, my alfa is well taken care of in fact it is in MINT shape body and mechanically aside from this rattle noise when starting in the morning which will be rectified with a better clutch disc. Hope this has helped some of you alfa fans. CIAO for now.

By Nizam on Unrecorded Date:

The Milano clutch housing is different than the
twin plate housing.

Also, late -85 and all genuine 86 GTV6's came
with single plate clutches (ala Milano). Maybe
your 86 never came with the twin plate. My
mom's 84 had the twin plate clutch, which we
then replaced with an 88 Milano single plate
clutch. She's happier with the take-up of the
pedal.

But to each his/her own.

Nizam

By Brian H. on Unrecorded Date:

Nizam, you are sure about the Single-plate clutch ? The PO of my ' 85.5 GTV-6 told me that he replaced the stock twin-plate with a Milano unit. ( of course he was the third or fourth owner, so....? )
BTW, anything new on the Calif. convention?
Ciao, Brian

By ralph on Unrecorded Date:

Does anyone know if the twin disc clutch units have the two little springs around the spine of the clutch discs. l know that the milano disc has this feature and it can be modified to todays standards without the two springs for 100. dollars. DOES ANYONE KNOW FOR SURE IF THE TWIN DISC CLUTCH HOUSING ON THE GTV6 IS THE SAME OR DIFFERENT THEN THE MILANO.

By Ralph on Unrecorded Date:

AH! at last PEACE when starting the car up in the morning, NO RATTLE at all. This is the way this car was meant to be and the clutch builder said VALEO clutches were made this way to reduce sifter lever vibration, l laughed and told him that it does more harm then good. The Clutch disc was modifed in one hour! FAST EAH! anyway if any of you alfa owners want to stop that annoying RATTLE then modify the clutch disc. Ciao and happy motoring.

By Nizam on Unrecorded Date:

Hi Brian, I am positive that the single plate
clutch housing is different than the twin-plate
clutch housing. I don't have pictures, but the
last time I pulled one out, it was unmistakable
that the twin plate one is slightly thicker, but
also slightly smaller in diameter. The clutch
flywheel is smaller, and stub axle is shorter
too.

The aluminum case that holds the clutch unit
and mates to the gearbox is the same,
however. This is why it is possible (and
commonplace) to swap out the twin plate
clutches with the later single plate clutches.

Hey Ralph, what exactly did they do to the
clutch unit to make it "current day"?

BTW - our GTV6's have gone through so many
clutches in their almost 20-year lifetime that
it's hard to say why your 85 has a twin plate, or
why my buddy's 82 has a single plate :-)

By ralph on Unrecorded Date:

Hi Nizem, Hows the car running. The clutch on my car was almost brand new so he told me that l could save alot of money just remodifing the same disc, he wanted 30$ for the job but l gave him 40$ and was money well spent. He removed all four rivets and welded the cog that fits in the center of the disc, note it had to be centered perfectly, he had special tools for that.Before he welded the cog there were two tiny springs that were to prevent the cog from touching the plate which does not work well with the transaxle setup,this set up caused approx 1/2 inch movement of the disc from side to side causeing the rattle in the rear end, now eliminated. He can also custom make one but for more $$. Anyways my car is perfect no NOISE AT ALL NOW! Don't hesitate to remodify. lt will make your alfa run like new at start ups, Just have it done by someone with the right knowledge and proper equipment. If you have any other questions email me at Vitucci@execulink.com Ciao

By joe on Unrecorded Date:

Thanks for the tip it really worked no rattle from the rear. l always thought the clutch was out of balance or something along those lines.

By rick on Unrecorded Date:

just did the same to my milano works great. usefull infermation dude.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

help! I have a clacking noise at the back of the engine front of the driveshaft that sounds like the drive shaft slightly touching or bouncing against something. I am thinking it could be bad motor mounts but I am not sure. The noise goes away at speed but I can feel a rubbing through the pedals and wheel when driving. thanks....

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

I had a similar noise, its a loose spider at the gearbox end..where the rear donut was attached. Apparently the jam nuts were loose and the whole thing was sliding along the splines of the input shaft.

It would clang during idle and disappear at speed but some metal rubbing on the run...sounds like wat u r experiencing.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

by spider you mean the three pronged piece that holds the donut to the driveshaft? And thanks...

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

exactly, the 3 pronged piece that extends from the input shaft of the gearbox...if dats loose yr rear driveshaft will be 'floating' around; maybe that accounts for the rubbing sound at speed. The clang sound is likely due to the loose jam nuts...
I used an air wrench, set to the max and tighten those nuts till they are dead tight!

Hope its the correct one...let us know yr findings!

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

Vincent....It did not help...I removed the driveshaft and greased the front and rear bearings. I replaced the rear donut and checked the clearance from the driveshaft to the rear engine mount and I am still getting that noise and rubbing feeling. I am extremely frustrated...does anyone know a good Alfa mech anywhere around OK city or Witchta falls texas?
Thanks

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

How are your motor mounts?

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

The motor mounts are not new. I still need to replace them. What worries me is with evey mount I replace the condition gets worse. I will start to replace the motor mounts next week. If that doesn't work I am going to go for a new driveshaft. I've already started to price them. Anyone have a good one drop me a line......

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

I was just thinking that maybee a broken motor mount was allowing the motor to rise up when you hit the accelerator causing something to rub. I can't think of why you would need a whole new driveshaft.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

I am thinking maybe it is the front bearing on the driveshaft. How much play should it have when it is out of the car?

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

Do you mean that swiveling part at the front of the Drive shaft? It should'nt have any play, but it should of course swivel freely. You can buy that part seperatly so I still don't see why you would need a whole new driveshaft.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

well the driveshaft seems to be the part making the noise and vibration. The only thing I can think of is that maybe the previous owner put donuts on it and didn't put the driveshaft back together correctly so it is out of balance. If that is the case my best bet would be to get a good used one right? I just ordered one of the engine mounts to put on next weekend. what about play in the rear bearings at the trans?
thanks

By Vincent on Unrecorded Date:

I still think the sound has something to do with the driveshaft cos I experience the same phenomena as u did...however, there was not much vibration though.

Hey I have a idea...hoist up the car and run it...use a stick as a listening device to pinpoint the source of the sound(dats what I did to locate those loose jam nuts!). Its better than all these wild chases:-)

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

I did that and the sound seems to be coming from the driveshaft just back from the engine. It is almost bell sounding. I can also see some movement with the driveshaft butI can't see it touching anything. I know now that all of the nuts in the driveshaft are tight.

By Vincent on Unrecorded Date:

I think u r getting close...can u try to eliminate the sound/part by disconnecting sections of the driveshaft and run the engine insitu? Of cos it will be a lot of work....good luck mate!

By Ben Bishop on Unrecorded Date:

Hey, sounds like the problem my GTV has...my mechanic dicked around with it the other day and it's mostly gone, can't hear it with the stereo on, but can just hear it coming back sloowly at idle........bell sound from front of driveshaft....Shits me to tears....

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

PSC, when did this problem start? If you just changed donuts or something it sometimes helps to loosen the pinch bolt at the front of the driveshaft and run the engine for a few minutes in neutral to help the driveshaft to set properly. Driveshaft vibration problems are difficult to solve. I really have no idea what the problem is, and it's difficult to diagnose anything over the internet, especially stuff like this. If you decide to have the whole thing ballanced, Vick Autosports in FT. Worth can do it, but they charge a lot for the service :(

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

THe problem started when I first got the car but it was very slight. As I started replacing all the rubber underneath the car it has gotten worse. Everything was bad under the car. I changed the ball joints, caster bushes, tierod ends, watts bushes, shocks, donuts, driveshaft support, and trans mounts. I guess if the motor mounts dont work I will have to call vicks. Do you know around how much they charge for balancing the driveshaft and how long does it take?

Ben,
Did your mech tell you what he did? I can't hear mine with the stereo cranked but I notice it when I show my id at the gate. The guards think I drive a beater because of all of the noise.

Vincent,
I'm not sure if I have that kind of time right now. The autohobby shop I use the lift at starts to get expensive after a few hours.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

I don't know off hand what they charge but I remember thinking it was alot.
Of course a driveshaft would have to be really out of ballance to make noise so I think there is some other problem here, but I have no idea what it is.
Are you still down near Waco?

By Vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Hey...have u also checked the jam nuts to the spider at the center joint/coupling? They can also come loose! Just have to be sure....

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

actually I am north of dallas now. I am in Altus OK. Almost the same distance but from the north instead. I'll have to give them a call if the motor mounts don't do the trick.

Vincent,
those are only in the middle and rear spider right?

By Russ Martin on Unrecorded Date:

I paid $150 in Los Angeles. It was well worth it. I had to buy a core for $100 to come up with one good one. The shop that balanced mine has Alfa driveshaft experience. I would not take it to a shop that has not done them before.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

which shop was that? I am planning on calling them Monday to inquire how much, if they do it. What do you mean you had to buy a core? You didn't use your old one?

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Exactly..those nuts in the middle and rear spiders. U have to take out the driveshaft to examine those nuts as they are concealed by the donuts.

The clanging will get worse by the day....like mine did and they sounded like a pack of loose nuts in a tin:)

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

I will double check those also...hopefully it is something simple, that I overlooked...

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Yes most definitely, I am pretty sure its due to those loose nuts at the spiders! Have a close look :-)

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

I will....I found out how much vickauto charges for a balancing...a whopping 250-300 USD. That is quite a bit. IAP sells rebuilt ones for 365 USD and I haven't had the chance to call APE yet. I hope those nuts in the spiders are the culprit...

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

just got off of the phone with APE direct....180USD for a driveshaft. That looks like the way Iwill go if these nuts in the driveshaft do not work.

By Nizam on Unrecorded Date:

So, which shop in LA is this?

Will they balance the driveshaft complete or in
two halves?

Will they also balance the clutch unit?

Thanks for the answers!

Nizam
88 75 3.0V6

By Russ Martin on Unrecorded Date:

When I took the shaft to them for balancing everything looked good. After they started on it they found that one of the ends was damaged. I had to call around to find a good used core. The good used core didn't have donuts. So I had them use the good end from the core to save the labor of changing the center bearing.
Nizam-I think they want the whole shaft for high speed balancing.
Cannon Engineering Inc
North Hollywood, Ca
818-508-0123
I found this co. a pleasure to deal with. Ask for Mike

By mario on Unrecorded Date:

my gtv6 ldles better than ever now at low revs no rattle from the rear. beat advise l got from this site thanks a million ralph it really works!

By david on Unrecorded Date:

psc,
I know this may sound a bit too simple, particularly if you are not having driveline vibration problems, but I had a similar noise. Turned out to be the top rear edge of the centre muffler hitting the bolts on the rear doughnut.

I am currently rebuilding another GTV6 and on removing the muffler noticed the same marks on the muffler and the doughnut bolts.
It used to ring like a bell and sound like the back end was falling out, particularly when de-cellerating hard.
A quick test is to put the rear of the car on stands, run it in gear and push up on the muffler/tail pipes,(make sure the muffler is not too hot).

David

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

Thanks David I will try that....

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

Vincent,You were right. The two nuts in the center driveshaft spider were tight but not tight on the spider. It was slightly wiggling causeing the vibrations and the slingers were moving causing the clanking. Got them tightned and the vibration is so slight I can barely feela anything( could just be paranoia). The rubbing sound is more audible now. It is definately not the drive shaft as it is speed related. I think it is coming from the right front wheel. Also I noticed uneven wear on my front tires. THe inside tread is more worn than the outside.

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Glad u managed to solve the clanging sound! Its a world of difference once u tightend up those nuts, otherwise, it feels like the whole car is falling apart:-) There is bound to be a little vibration on this setup; thats why the rubber donuts are there!

U could be wrong on the FR wheel(due to sound reflection)...best thing is to support the front on a stand(a hoist is better) and have an assistant turn each wheel a time while u sit in the cabin listening! U cant go wrong this way:-)

Sounds like u have excessive negative camber on the wheel...r the tyres still good? Does the car pull to one side? Try changing the front pair of tyres...the easy way.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

The front tires are almost gone...the outside tread is good but the inside is almost flat....I have been so preoccupied with the driveshaft I didn't notice the tires. The car tracks very straight. I have noticed on turns to the left the noise gets louder and turns to the right it goes away. As far as the Camber, as far as I know the front suspension is stock as far as ride height and torsion bars. I will have to recruit my wife this evening to rotate the wheels while I listen from the cabin....that should go over real well...

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Well, looks like this is more related to wheel camber. Maybe u should change/swop the front pair of tyres and relook at the front wheel camber...u can correct excessive negative camber by removing the shims at the A-arm.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

Shims at the A arms? What does that entail? I have never heard of that.

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Oh well, in the 75/GTV/alfetta suspension, there are shims that are placed at the mounting point between the A-arm(lower arm) and the crossmember. Have a look at the manual, if u are unsure.

By increasing the shim thickness, the front wheels will have more negative camber:-)

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

Are they hard to remove?

By dp on Unrecorded Date:

I just had this done, the shims were special ordered - but very inexpensive. But to answer your question, no.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

Is this a garage job? Do I have to mess wit the torsion bars and will it affect the alignment?
Thanks again.

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Yes u can DIY, u need to put the car on a stand, loosen the two bolts securing the A-arm to the x-member, pry the A-arm away from the x-member and insert/remove the shims as u require. Pretty straight forward.

I forgot how much camber is equivalent to one shim...its on the manual:-)

By Keith on Unrecorded Date:

Dont remove the bolts completely, just enough so you can pry the A arm out a little. Pull the bolts all the way out without disconnecting the torsion bars and you will get hurt.....

By dp on Unrecorded Date:

Get the car aligned after you do it.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

ok...I'l give it a shot...thanks

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

Also, If I have too much negative camber I am removing shims or adding?

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

More shims=more negative camber. Remove shims to increase positive camber. This is an easy job, just go to the hardware store and buy an angle finder that will fit onto your wheels. Most of them will fit the stock GTV6 wheels. Then stop at the autoparts store and get a box of shims for a 60s GM "A" body car (ie. Chevelle, Skylark, etc). Loosen, don't remove the lower "A" arm bolts, pry the arm away from the center of the car and add or remove shims as needed. Lower the car, bounce the suspension a few times and re-check with the angle finder. You can set camber pretty fast and easily once you get the hang of it.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

I should add that the correct Alfa shims are a little nicer, but the G.M. "A" body shims are avaliable everywhere in just about any thickness, and they work just as well.

By dp on Unrecorded Date:

Greg, does this change the alignment when done? It seems to me it would.

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Sometimes it seems that despite taking all the shims out...the camber is still biased to the negative! Can this be attributed to chassis flex over the years? Or maybe the bushes are on their way out?

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

DP, Yes it does change the alignment. More specifically it changes camber, which is one aspect of alignment. The other two we can adjust are tow in and castor. It will not affect toe in, and as long as you use the same number of shims on the front and back it will not affect castor. I hope that answers you question, if anything about this is unclear ask!

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

Vincent, good point! This problem is only partially caused by worn bushings. The real problem is that the chassis kind of settles in such a way that negative camber develops. It's no big deal though since there are at least three ways to fix this which are discussed in other areas on this site.

By dp on Unrecorded Date:

Well, I'm curious about the adjustment of each side relative to the steering rack. It seems logical to me that if you move the wheel hub out a bit (shims, albeit slight) it would toe out each wheel a tad... yes/no? or doesn't it matter because it's such a small adjustment?

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

What are the other three ways just in case it doesn't work. And where on this site is that info located....

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Greg, one of 'my' way is to take out the ring sleeve(after all the shims are out!) and saw it down by 2mm....a very time consuming task as u need to dismantle the whole front suspension. Is there any easier method?

Dp..I think Greg meant that if u add equal no. of shims front and back, u will not affect the toe? Only the caster will be affected?

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

Hmm, lots of questions here. Vincent, your way is also the way I do it, only I saw off about 1/4 inch from each of those cone shaped sleeved located by the shims. Another option is Alfa Heaven's Camber adjusters which replace the upper control arm bushing with a bearing. This product works well but it wears out very quickly. If it had a grease fitting on it I would probably use it. The last option I know of is the one favored by all the alignment shops and it's a really bad idea. Many alignment shops will offer to bend the car back into shape. All I can say is don't do it.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

PSC, see my above post for the three methods. I don't know where on the site this info is located. Regarding the shims, they adjust CAMBER if added in equal numbers, not caster as Vincent thought I said. It is possible to adjust caster by adding more shims to the front or back of the "A" arm but don't do that. The car has a separate adjustment for castor.
DP, interesting point about the camber adjustment affecting toe in or out. I must say I never thought about that. However I THINK that the geometry of the front end is such that the camber adjustment will not affect toe because that movement will be handled by the tie rod end's ball joint. In fact I am pretty darn sure that the camber adjustment will not affect toe.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

If you were to use a large amount of shims to push the lower control arm out for alignment, it would have the possibility to change toe... The tie rods would maintain their length while you have moved the lower ball joint located on the lower control arm outward. But you would have to move them a very large amount for it to matter much. There is so much to alignments like scrub radius, thrust angles, toe, castor, camber,bump steer, that most shops ignore................

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

aaaaa.....maybe I should take it to a shop. This is starting to look like it is out of my league.

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Hi Anon, how do u account for bumpsteer on the GTV6 suspension? I am experiencing annoying bumpsteer at speeds inexcess of 100kmh. Feels like a kick in the steering. Thanks.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

Vincent,

If your car is lowered but everything else is factory you will suffer increased bump steer. That's because you'll have moved the rack down relative to the hubs, resulting in the tie rods no longer being horizontal. The fix is to have the steering arms on the back of the hubs bent up so that the tie rods are again level with the ground.

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Thanks Anon, but really I think the ride height may be stock. U mentioned that the rack is lower with the lower ride height, I suppose the tie rods are now elevated upwards at the steering arms? In this sense, I should bend the steering arms down rite? Thanks.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

HMMM, I don't think I will be bending the steering arms or any other part of my car's steering or suspension. I don't even want to wade into this bump steer nonsense. Instead I think I will go out and adjust my car's scrub radius since I forgot about it last time I adjusted my thrust angles.

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Greg, dats interesting, how do u adjust scrub radius on the GTV6?

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

That was just all nonsense, scrub radius and thrust angles are not adjustable on the GTV6, although wheel offset does affect scrub radius so if you change wheels or use spacers it will change. I was just kind of making fun of the direction this conversation was going, sorry for the confusion.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

When I posted about the scrub angles, bump steer etc, I was just pointing out that there is more to alignments than just toe and camber. (I am not a master of the english language like some here) If you start modifying your cars keep in mind more is changing than the "common" angles. Most alignment shops dont even care about the other measurements, its too hard for them to explain (if they can) and too hard to change. I have seen shops Lie about caster/camber angles so they dont have to change them.

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Well, I appreciate all the shared info on wheel geometry...its great stuff! I do agree that this is one area that not many experts(so claimed) know much at these alignment shops.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

Anon is right about the alignment shops. MANY of them will only adjust toe and lie about everything else.

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

I had the alignment done and they said the toe was out. Sound right?

By vincent on Unrecorded Date:

Its hard to diagnose without seeing the wear pattern on the rubbers. A good mechanic will be able to tell instantly whether its due to camber or toe by looking at the wear pattern on the rubbers.

As a guide, if the toe is out u will find wear on one side together with some 'feather' like features at the edges. This is due to the rubbing effect of the wheel on the road when the toe is out. Hope it helps:-)

By peter on Unrecorded Date:

l had my clutch replaced and the centre disc bearing welded no more rattle. thanks for the tip ralph

By psc on Unrecorded Date:

Center bearing welded? What exactly did they do?


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