What's with the 140HP 2.0 and the 160HP 2.5 anyway?

Alfa Romeo GTV6 Forum: Performance: What's with the 140HP 2.0 and the 160HP 2.5 anyway?
By Tom Bos on Unrecorded Date:

What's the deal here?
The GTV 2.0 has 140 HP (in good condition), and the GTV6 has 160 HP in good condition. What's that for rubbish... The 2.5 even weighs 300 kilo's more!
I don't understand, I mean: 2 added pistons, fuel injected, bigger exhaust system, computer management etc. and you only get 20 HP more?
How weird.

By Peter K. on Unrecorded Date:

Tom,
The GTV 2.0 has 130 HP,and not one more,the V-6 has 160 HP.....AT LEAST!!
That's why Alfa stated topspeed for the GTV-6...MORE than 205 KM!!
(The 2.0 180KM.....)
One time I owned both,so I know there is realy a BIG difference!
Peter.

By Tom B. on Unrecorded Date:

I own both, and I know that there is NOT. Yes in driving feel, handling, sound... bot not that big in power.
My 2.0 Completely stock with absolutely everything budget driver at least 190km/h, my 2.5 does no more than 200. Both cars are fine, tuned, balanced etc.
I find it a bit disappointing when I find out that the 2.5 isn't exactly good at being upgraded either. At least the 2.0 was upgradeable to 180 HP quite easily just by replacing the cams and exhaust manifold.

Just a bit disappointed, that's all.

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

Makes me want to install a full race 2.0 in my Milano, shed some wieght in the process of creating a beast..would this work?

By zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Medici, you can install a semi race 2.0 TS 16V and get 225bhp. Saw that in a 1972 Bertone GTV 2.0.

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

Can I buy it in the US?, Will it rev higher than a 3.0 or 2.5? Will the car be way faster than with the 3.0 in it? Talk to me coo coo (btw I'm 100% game for a group purchase in the summer..We'll get Autotune from beninca)

By marcel on Unrecorded Date:

Tom you should replace your very bad 2.5 engine for a good one, the european 2.5 weights 1210kg,the 2.0 1110kg (1981-1986) thats 100kg.You will never,never,never get 180HP with 9:1 compression from the 2.0 Go to a racetrack with your 2.0 and compare with somebody with a 2.5 you will see only his back.There is a BIG difference.

By twinspark6 on Unrecorded Date:

i have owned both. I even added dual webbers and extra stuff, but the 2.0 doesnt even come close to the 2.5. I even let my friend drive it and we raced. Does not even come close. Your engine might be bad.Even with 150,000miles. it got up to redline in 5th with out a problem.No it did not take a long time to get to redline either.

By bwagner on Unrecorded Date:

My stock GTV6 goes beyond the redline on the flat.
The speedo has registered 230Km/h.
Slightly optimistic reading, I'm sure, but I'm pleased with the performance.

By Julian on Unrecorded Date:

Yeah I have to agree that there is a world of difference between the four and six.
If a four is built right, it will go pretty hard, but nothing in the alfa inventory comes close what a 24v six can give in terms of power from factory.
Interesting Medici and Zamani- I see youre going for the Autronic package- Ill have mine on order in about two weeks, but I dont know whether I will use the autotune...

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

I got an e-mail from a guy in Oz that his stock 3.0 24V has 233bhp @ the wheels on beninca's dyno. This is using the autronic and I also suspect some minor intake mods (filter) and big exhuast. In any case, 233 at the wheels is damn impressive! I was also told to buy now coz the Oz dollar is pretty weak currently.

Hey Yasir, let's join the group buy!

By Tom on Unrecorded Date:

Hey guys

To begin with I have an US decatted V6 (that is V12 for julian, the GTV6 has 12 valves). It runs pretty fine.
MArcel: Read the book from Jim Kartalamakis on the 2.0 carburator. He has one that produces 210 HP, but that's SERIOUS tuning.

I still don't quite agree though, and on running the redline, I have the 83 gearbox, that means topspeed can hardly be obtained in 5th gear, but more likely in 4th gear. (It's the very long gear ratio thing).

By Mattias Eliason (Gesus) on Unrecorded Date:

Common...

There is no standard GTV6 in good tune that does not have its top speed in fifth. Sure the 83 diff was longer but not that long.

regards

GESUS

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

Feel the torque...

By Tom B. on Unrecorded Date:

Hmm... well it really doesn't climb past 4500 rpm in 5th.
I havn't got a clue what speed that is though. My speedo at time of testing was a 85mph max version. There's a 240km/h in now, so I guess I'll have to check again, but I'm certain it won;t climb higher.
Could it be the fuel? Does the car need 98 octane? I use Castrol GTX oil, and everyone I spoke to swears it runs perfectly... I really don;t understand. The exhaust doesn;t make a sound eiter. The car is dead quiet (for GTV6 standards).
I have 190/65 tires though. Soemone told me that wasn't right and it needs 190/60 tires. They were on it when I bought it though, it's US version, so I figured since verything was incredibly painstakingly maintained in pristine stock condition, this would be too.

By marcel on Unrecorded Date:

Hi Tom,
i wonder that you suggest that book ( YOU should really read it ),so Jim writes that you need a lot more stuff to get 180 HP, like dia 45 carbs,extensively ported heads,modified distributor, pistons Borgo 10.4:1.....

By Tom B. on Unrecorded Date:

Marcel:

Granted, it was quite a time ago when I last read the book, at that time I was pretty impressed by all the options and power increase though. Maybe it is because it came over on me as fairly easy to accomplish these matters.
Surely I am wrong, I am certainly no expert on the matter. I'm just very disappointed. And still hurting from the demise of my 2.0

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Tom B.

My dad used to drive us (3 kids, mom and dad) in our GTV6 and take it to 5800 rpm in 5th with the A/C on. Can you imagine that! That's about 123 mph with a fully loaded GTV6 and A/C. Car is an '84 and 100% stock! Actually it was mom's car and still is. She installed an LSD transmission and single plate 3.0 clutch, 75 isostatic linkage, 75 ts pump and ps rack, and just had her mechanic do a 3.0 transplant.

In any case a GTV6 will leave any stock 2.0 GTV, unless you have a very very good stock 2.0 that MAY put out a little over 130bhp. Or your GTV6 maybe a little out of shape.

Zamani

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

If your stock GTV6 does not out run your stock 2.0 GTV then something is wrong with your GTV6. Either an air leak, an injector not firing, cam or ignition timing could be off, a spark plug may not be firing or it could be many other things. Just because the car was maintained well does not mean it is running properly. When was the last time anyone checked thier throttle position switch with an ohm meter? Do you think your mechanic did it at the last tune up? Probably not!

By Julian on Unrecorded Date:

233HP at the wheels is DAMN IMPRESSIVE!!! BLOODY IMPRESSIVE ACTUALLY!!
Well at least all my preaching of re-programmable management systems hasnt turned out to be a crock of bull!

Tom: I know that the GTV6 2.5 is a two valve head motor, but I was saying that a stock 24V 3L has to be ONE OF THE BEST standard motors I have ever driven- better than most BMW sixes, bar an E36 M3 motor, and rates as a pretty good transplant motor- you only have to leave it stock and it goes hard!

By twinspark6 on Unrecorded Date:

Hey guys, I am also interested on beninca autronic. Whats does it include and what is the group price going to be? How does it compare to the haltech? By the way does anyone have a late style shift lever. I will be installing a verde trans in my 82.

By Tom Bos on Unrecorded Date:

I heard that because the 3.0 24V is placed transversely into the motor area of an 164, the tranplant into a gtv6 is not as straightforward as one might thing.
Secondly, Zamani, I think you're underestimating the weird gearbox I have. It's somewhat like an overdrive.
The garage I go to and bought the car initially is rated as one of the best alfa romeo classics dealers in the Netherlands, and I really do think they did measure the sort of thing you are describing.
I have found out in my years of driving my 2.0 that there are very few good mechanics and garages in this world.

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

From what I recall with conv. with Joe Beninca, the package price for 1 complete system including all sensors, autotune, ecu, bored out plenum and runners, etc was like $3,000 US. I could be wrong but I remember the price made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up..I'll try to contact him and begin negotiating for 3+ units. In the future when we're closer to making the move we'll post a sign up list and work out the details....

By karmat on Unrecorded Date:

Okay, so have any of you read the article about Brian Berger's Alfetta Sprint Veloce Turbo on this site(featured Alfas section)? I'm guessing that's pretty close to the ultimate state of tune for a 2.0L 4. 301 flywheel HP. I have seen this car in person at the garage, but unfortunately it had the head out for work.

By karmat on Unrecorded Date:

Okay, so I read about the Autronic EMS. What kind of pricing is on these things? The Autotune option looks like the killer reason to use Autronic (save yourself a bundle on the dyno charges and don't have to find someone who REALLY knows how to tune). BUT, how much are they? Also, I noticed that it does not include a distributorless ignition from what I could tell. Any thoughts?

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

thats the thing, you use your stock coil and distributor. Autotune is cool for reasons stated.
and Joe Beninca Claims 20HP, I trust him.

By Jules on Unrecorded Date:

Everyone can trust Beninca. Who else in the world except for Autodelta could build a 700hp two litre?
Brian Berger's car is absolutely brilliant, but its not the top end of power capable with a 2L.
Jim Steck is a forced induction genious, and I know without a doubt that he could easily get 400+hp from an alfa 2L if he had someone with the budget. The management system used on Bergers car is of an early 90s vintage. This is a first generation ECU compared to an Autronic which is a Gen 3.5 in comparison.
Consider for a moment that Australia has the following ECUs available to any car enthusiast- Motec, Autronic, Haltech, Microtech, Link, Wolf 3D, EMS.
We also have about 30 people who can dynotune a car in Sydney alone. Per capita, I would say we are pretty spoilt for choice. There are 3 million people in Sydney.
When you need to inject a carby motor, and need to know what your charge temp is when running 40psi of boost, and you need to be assured that this motor you have spent $40K+ on is being given the right amount of fuel, the right ignition advance, at the right throttle opening, everytime- you want the best system.
Just letting you guys know that you are buying into the top of the range here, and that the 3K you spend means that you can really take advantage of every little thing you do with your motor- give it that extra 1000rpm to go with your S cams- and the fuel and ignition advance it needs to make power from it. Whereas with a Pandoras box, its set parameters for every unit, the Autronic is a program, into which you enter the required values. It is extremeley smooth (fast processor), and has the highest fidelity- on par with Motec. You wont regret it. In most cases, Joe Beninca will also have a program to with it too- this gives you a base to work off.
If you have a 3.0 12v or 24V youre looking at even better gains just from optimising the timing and fuel curves.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

The American dollar buys OVER 2 Aussie dollars.
This is the time to buy as in the near future the Autronic will have a small price rise as some components come from America. Basic SMC is $1586 Aussie dollars excluding duties,taxes, and freight.
I can supply instructions for DIY and the various jigs for accurate crank sensor placement. The rest of installation is easy.
The Autotune feature requires an accurate A/F ratio meter. I don't know how far apart all you guys are but one unit could be purchased as well as the jigs and every one share time. Its a thought to keep costs down.
Machining of plenubs as a group purchase is attractive to me for the saving in setup time, and therefore to you. Also to you guys the transport cost would be divided over more items. Machining the inlet runners is hand done so the savings are less. The air filter lid needs modifying. Again with numbers I could quote for a carbon fibre lid with the large pipe connection attached. Here's a thought. With all you guys having Autronic Autotune and mapped accurately with A/F ratio meter, you can compare files on the internet. This will be a great learning tool as you will see what makes more HP by seeing the Volumetric efficiency numbers between engine setups. More Fuel means more air flow. I could consult and add recommendations.
Another standard Autronic feature is the logging capability. Virtual drag racing!
See some stories in www.autospeed.com Search by Beninca.
Autronic does have distributorless ignition. A normal distributor and coil is fine and only when very high boost or high compression ratio is used
could you require it. The sierra engine in one of my stories in www.autospeed.com with 500HP still had a little 3 inch diameter cap.
Autronic has analog and digital outputs. Configure one or two for gear change lights, or engine cooling fan, or fuel used pulse. etc.
What is the call for 24V engine transplants?
Response????????????????/

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

I think we all live too far apart to share one autotune and jig. How much for 1 complete system, 3 complete systems, and 5 complete systems. Please exclude shipping to not confuse the issue.
I'm going to use an air tube with cone filter placed outside of the engine bay, also an inline electric supercharger. Also please indicate how much approx HP the increase will be for a stock 3.0 12v and 2.5 12v respectively.

24V transplants would be nice.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Hi Joe,

Only Aus $1586? What do you think would be the power increase like? Maybe about 10 bhp? Can you give us the complete price for an Alfa V6 assuming we use our low impedence Jetronic injectors? You know, map sensor, temp sensor, 1 bar MAP sensor etc etc and all other necessary hardware. I want my intakes to remain stock though. If priced right, Medici and I may go in early.

Yasir, DP, the 2 Martins and anyone else, I think this is the time to grab this offer from Joe Beninca. Unless someone else has other suggestions?

Hoping to cut a deal real soon here....Medici what do you think?

Zamani

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

100% Zamani, If I can get the full blown autotronic package WITH autotune and everything I need to install the stuff, jig etc. For a good price I'll do it very soon, Why dont you want to modify you're intake? thats a big part of the upgrade...

I think the best part about the autotronic and auto tune is that you could screw around with the car as much as you want and always tune it perfectly with no expensive dyno runs.

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

My brother may buy one too (I could share auto tune with him since we live so close, he has an 83 gtv6)Since he has money blowin' out of his butt, I think I can talk him into it..So thats practially 3 systems right there.

By karmat on Unrecorded Date:

Joe, was that price for just the unit, or for all the parts needed for the GTV6? Also, are the intake modifications required for the MAP sensor? Or is it just performance? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I'm in Ohio, though, and I think Medici and others are in CA. I'd be interested in sharing some parts, but chances are I'd have to wait until you guys were done and could send them along to me via UPS or something. I'd be interested, surely, but I'm wondering about total cost... thanks!

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

My main concern is the HP increase

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Hi Joe,

Can we get a final price on a package for the SMC with all the necessary harness, sensors, software etc. And what kind of power increase should we roughly expect with a stock engine. Mainly this will be for the SOHC V6 (2.5 and 3.0).

Thanks

Zamani

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Hello all. Sorry for delay but I have to physically work and at home I have a 1 year old and a new baby. It keeps me from immediate resonses.The Autronic "kit" for a 2.5 or 3.0 requires an Autronic ECU. $1586. The pressure sensor is built in. A gear tooth crank sensor and mount fitted in the bell housing uni access hole. $148. A Throttle potentiometer and adaptor plate.$230. The wiring loom, air temp sensor, software and logging is included in ECU price. Water temp uses original. OK. The reference sensor will use the original hall sensor and vane in distributor. Just cut off 5 vanes leaving 1. An adaptor for the throttle body to suit 4 inch diameter pipe.$50. It seems you are going to put a unifilter under the wheel arch. Thats OK. COLD AIR!!!! The standard ignition module is no good so I need to supply one. $185. Now do you guys want to terminate the wiring loom to all the sensors? etc. This is time consuming. I can build them but at $400 each for 5 off. Idealy new injectors but you can squeeze a little more by increasing pressure to 70PSI. You can probably buy a regulator cheaper in America.
The autotune needs a good A/F ratio meter other wise its a waste. The autotune "looks" at the A/F ratio in exhaust and adjusts the fuel to bring to "target" A/F ratio. How are you guys going to measure A/F ratio anyway? Those simple "A/F kits" are very temperature sensitive and can be way off. I will supply a 3.0 modified engine file which will be similar but not exact. Its the aerial shot of the white GTV in my www. I see this as being your biggest problem. You will all need good tuners in your areas. HP gains.... Together with plenub,runners and ECU you should gain 20HP. You will need a "better" centre muffler,straight through.
Any other mods you make can then be tuned yourselves. I would not suggest tuning the vehicles without a chassis dyno, at least in the beginning. If you keep the vehicles the same then you can share the ECU calibration files.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

sounds like a can of worms.

By karmat on Unrecorded Date:

Okay, so total is more like AUD$2299. That's
still pretty good compared with what I've seen
from other ECUs. When you mention
"terminate the wiring loom" what do you mean
by that? Thanks for running all those
numbers, Joe. I checked today, for anyone's
interest and it was just about 2 Aussie dollaris
to one US.

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

OK!!! So 1200 US americano dollars and we get a full on programable ECU with all the sensors, autotune, wiring loom to all the sensors, and a 4" adaptor for the throttle body....
Joe: can you supply a good A/F meter that your stuff works well with? Also, 1200 does not include plenum and runner work? how much extra for that?

An adjustable fuel pressure regulator is NO problem, ricambi has them.

Zamani are we on the same page, DP? Karmat? anyone else?

Also Joe: please confirm that this package will include autotune, if not how much more? also how much more for an A/F meter supplied by you?

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Some one cannot add. The above message adds to $2199 Aussie dollars. $1100 American
The supplied wiring loom plugs into the ECU and is 6 ft long and open ended. You could pay me to actually cut to length and terminate to injectors etc. It is time consuming and sometimes the longest operation in fitting a System to a vehicle. Or you could do it your self. I am offering $400 each for 5 orders.
For the Autotune option the cost is $200.
The Model A A/F ratio meter is $1686 + sensor $280
www.beninca.com.au/a_f_meter.htm
If you don't buy or have access to an accurate A/F ratio meter then Autotune is a waste.
Maybe your respective dyno operators should be shown this meter and they might buy one or they have something equivalent. It need to have a 0 to 1 volt output.
Plenub to machine. For 5 off $80 each
Runners to machine. 30 off $60 each...$360 per vehicle. It will vibrate my hands to bits in grinding. It cannot be done by machine.
Any other questions?

By Medici on Unrecorded Date:

Ok. this is in US Dollars

1100 for the ecu, sensors, software, 4" adaptor
100 for the autotune.
844 for the A/F meter
140 for the sensor (for the A/F meter)
200 for the labor to wire the injectors
40 for the plenum work (with 5 orders)
180 for the six runners to be hand machined.

2604 grand total not including shipping.

With out the plenum and runner work you will not get 20hp. with out the a/f meter you will not be able to properely tune the car, without the autotune you will need expensive dyno time and a good tuner (alfa tuners, yeah right) I took my car in to a dyno shop and they had never seen an alfa but in a Playstation video game. haha.

I wouldn't do this unless I got everything, and I can't swing 2600 bucks right at the moment.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Wow that's expensive. But I never expected it to be cheap to begin with. Since this will be in the car pretty much forever, I will definitely consider it in the upcoming months. But I still have rave tires and street tires to buy.

This week I'm gonna check with my local dyno shop and see if they have a good A/F meter. I wonder if the Haltech A/F meter is any good, it's only $100+ US I think.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

I have been observing this conversation for a while and I am a little confused on a few things. First I will say it appears Mr. Beninca may be the most knowledgable person on the planet with regards to getting high amounts of power out of older Alfa engines. Furthermore I should mention that I know almost nothing about more modern fuel injection systems, the early and mid 80s Alfas and Fiats are the MOST modern cars I work on. However I am very familiar with the GTV6s L-Jetronic injection. I am confused about where this 20 horsepower is coming from and I am confused about why we would want to spend $2600 to get only 20 horsepower. The stock injection system is holding back maybee 10-15 horsepower due to it not putting in quite enough fuel so there is some power to be gained there. People have been correcting this for years with much less expensive methods. Beyond that something needs to be done to get more air into the engine. If all you needed to make more power was more fuel we could just up our fuel pressure to get all the power we need and of course we know that will not work. The stock air intake system on the 2.5 is well matched to the needs of the engine, it is not that restrictive, it uses cold air and has the largest filter for a 2.5 liter engine I know of. Unless you are using some pretty radical cams or super high rpm the stock air intake system will meet with your demands. I just do not see the need for this system unless you are planning to build a 300hp motor. The stock system is fine for a mild street motor. Also I should mention that a modified ecu gives a 10-15 hp increase for $400, so and extra $2200 to gain another 5-10 hp IF YOU CAN FIND A GOOD TUNER just does not make sense to me. I just don't get it.

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

well the 20 hp is from the removal of the AFM and the bored out plenum and runners plus the 70psi fuel, and mapped engine. Now if you have cams, headers and ported heads, you can really maximize these upgrades with benincas package,(which is my ultimate goal). The question is buy it now, or buy it later (when I really,really need it). Either way he puts out awesome world class stuff, but i think the price is out of range for the average alfa rogue...BUT if you are a serious car buff 2600 for a complete onboard package is great!

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

OK response to just adding more fuel. The air fuel ratio must remain correct. The air flow meter is an intake restriction. The curved pipe also adds restriction and that is why I go for a 4 inch pipe. Yes the air filter is large but the feed hole from the front of the air box is too small. As the air flow increases the small bores in the plenub and runners restrict. Try the calculations in a program like "Performance Trend". Another point, engine response is increased as the engine has full available air instead of opening the AFM and then getting air. May be I have convinced you to remove the air flow meter but now you have to " measure the airflow buy some other means. The Autronic gives you complete control of the spark,rev limiter, fuel,etc, and when the fuel goes in. Actually this is another gain in drivability as the fueling is sequential.ie Follows the firing order so the fuel goes in at the same time of the engine cycle on every cylinder.The STD ECU is only group fire.
The advantage is if you increase the "cam" and the engine becomes "burbully" at low speed you can recover some of that "smooth" idle.
Another advantage of control over the spark is to be able to give idle stability. ie Have say 10 Deg at 900RPM, then 20Deg at 800 RPM and 0 Deg at 1000RPM. What will happen? As engine slows it gains timing and torque, as it speeds it looses timing and torque.Result..... steady idle.
What about the logging. It just comes with the package.
Anyway after all you can remove the ECU when you "put to sleep" your GTV and use the ECU on your next series GTV or........
So this is an investment!
Also on the A/F ratio meter. It is the state of art in electronics. It also has a bar graph for accelerator pump adjusments with "peak hold" like on a home stereo VU meter.
Lastly, the Aussie dollar has fallen further, but how much further can it go.
I forgot to mention. I will be supplying only 1 mechanical drilling jig for the correct drilling of crank sensor. You will need to share this one around. Its only used once.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

Yes, I am aware the air fuel ratio must be correct. I do not have a program like "Performance Trend" I am simply looking at this from a logical point of view. I agree the AFM is a restriction, but how much of a restriction? Probably not too much since an AFM fifty percent larger than stock only results in a 2-3 hp. gain according to the folks who sell them. Regarding the curved main intake hose, I don't like the stock one either, it is way too expensive and prone to developing cracks and leaks. Is it a big restriction? Probably not since it is the same size as the throttle, and intake system plumbing normally gets larger downstream of the intake not smaller so I do not see how a bigger hose will help here. Regarding the plenum bores those same "small bores" on the 2.5 feed the 3.0 so they may be a restriction on the bigger motor but I doubt they are holding the 2.5 back much. The 20 hp. total gain is certainly belivable, especially on the bigger motor but my point is we can get almost that much anyway with a modified ecu and a bigger afm which should yield a 15 hp increase. The money left over could do a lot more for the car then just another 5 hp.

By Paul Grant on Unrecorded Date:

Well Greg I think it gets down to age.The younger guys on this site want to get as much power out of their engines as possible so money is not that much of an object.Us older folk take a hard look at what are we getting in terms of BANG FOR THE BUCK.You as well as myself cannot justify $2600 for a 20HP increase when the proven methods (although old)performance cams,larger afm,modified ecu,which would probably cost $1700 to have someone else do it would give you your 20HP increase.Of course then there is porting the heads and putting in oversize valves would yeild some more HP.The nice thing is you can do these mods slowly as you have the funds.But for the Autotronic system thats not possible.I could see the justification if you could get 50-75HP out of this but whats wrong with a Kirhstein,or Pandora's Box,or a Sperry system which is $400 bucks?I would think a turbo or supercharger would quite a bit less.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Sorry to be harsh. People without engine or chassis dyno tests results should not speak. The info needs to be FIRST HAND. Not here say. The runners do restrict. Its a total long length of small diameter. The HP gained is due to the peak point increasing in RPM. Therefore small torque gain and RPM gain equals power gain. Of coarse a larger airflow meter will only increase a small amount. What about the air filter entry hole at the front behind headlight. Also the GTV airfilter might be big but some of it is lost under AFM. When I connect my large 4 inch pipe I modify the top lid and use all the air filter element.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Every one is forgetting that I am supplying an ECU with a finished wiring loom to Plug and Play.
An ECU which is sequential. Other options floated around are not and do not include a finished loom . A Top of the line A/F ratio meter and sensor. This more of a tool than a something to put on your vehicle. An advanced state of the art Autotune which typically F1 teams use.
An easy solution for super accurate crank position input to any ECU in fact. Logging!!!.
Machining of various parts. So be careful when comparing value for money. I can only be generous for 5 units though. This combination will make the car fast, smooth and responsive.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Medici,
For now let's pass the intake runners and plenum. Consider that in stage 2.

For the A/F meter, we can share it amongts a few people provided we are punctual and honest. I really don't need an A/F meter everyday, maybe we can rotate it every month. Or maybe it can be shared between 2-3 of you guys down in San Diego. I think I can get a few buyers interested with Autronic up here in San Jose/ San Francisco.

These cost cutting measures will bring the price down quite a bit. When you have the money, go for the plenum from Beninca or Sperry. Hope I can get my hands on some Vince Pace headers soon hehe. In any case, I'm seriously thinking about it. Maybe not this or next month, but in this year. My original plan was to make the purchase in July.

Joe,
How does the intake runner work? It still has to taper down to the size of the intake ports doesn't it? So will there be a taper or will the intake ports need to be enlarged as well?

Paul,
The Alfa V6 I think has a lot of potential. And I think I've spent enough time monkeying with it. How's this, my brother put together a 164S engine in his Milano and guess what it put out the same amount of bhp at the wheels as my then stock non-S 3.0. Yeah never realized it until we put it on the dyno. Without a dyno, who knows, the $400 here, $200 there, $150 here (which may add up to a large amount) be actually of little or no benefit. Only because we weren't able to make all of those upgrades work together.

And a key part in making things work together is a tuneable EFI system. And I like the idea of a sequential injector, as it should be able to save some fuel, the Jetronic and motronic on 12V cars all fire at the same time. The 24V motronic has a cam angle sensor which fires the injector sequentially.

Also, I noticed that the more serious Alfa owners who love to tune their cars are actually older guys. Simply because us "younger" ones (if you can call us that) don't have much resources.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

OK Some resonable comments!
I was going to suggest that not every one buys the A/F ratio meter.
Idealy the runners need to have the diameters match a little way down the port. Stuff some rags down there and close the inlet valve. Vacumm cleaner to remove swarf.
Dyno confirmation is important. I have ownwed one since 1970.
The 24V is actually only partially sequential buy the way.
Stage 1 should be the ECU. There is some skill in learning to tune and a good way to start is with a STD engine. The engine responds preditably to key commands. As the "cam" get bigger more dynamic effects come into play and you need to know what to look for.

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

Let me clear up my position here. I am not saying I think this system is a bad deal. There is clearly a lot of engineering and hardware for the money. My point is one of horsepower/dollar. Now chassis dyno tests are avaliable for the Pandora's box computer and there is a link to those results through the parts vendor section of this website. They show a 14hp gain over the stock ecu. So when I say a 15hp increase with an ecu and bigger AFM I think I am being safetly conservative. I do have both of these mods on one of my cars. I did not say the runners do not restrict I said they don't restrict much, sure there is improvement to be had there but again we are back to the power gain/dollar equation. The airfilter housing entry hole is ducted to ram air inboard of the headlights, the entry is small. There is an extention inside the airfilter housing that causes some of the filter area to be "lost," anyone who thinks that is holding back power could remove it although I would advise against it. Alfa put that extention in there for a very good reason. I also wish to point out that if only people with first hand dyno tests speak then this will be a very quiet fourm. I agree with Paul and Medici, and if you are going for absolute max power then this system makes a lot of sense. Lastly I am impressed with what I have seen on the internet of Mr. Beninca's work and I am especially glad that he, unlike every other vendor has taken the time to post his thoughts on a public fourm.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Thank you for some frank comments.
My life has been Alfa Romeo, especially as my first car was an Alfetta 1974 which was turbocharged.

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

Greg/ Paul, darn good points; However my ultimate goal is to rip SS camaro's apart, so I'm going to need this ecu anyway, to maximize all current and future upgrades. eventually I'll own a non street legal monster 3.0 and I'll call it Snaggle Tooth.
Money is a good consideration, but then again, I bought the car for 5K. I figure if I didn't spend 35K on a dumb BMW, the alfa deserves some goodies.
Basically I plan to make the ghosts of alfa engineers of old very proud..am I sick or what?

1100 for the ecu, sensors, software, 4" adaptor
100 for the autotune.
200 for the labor to wire the injectors

1400 grand total for stage I

me and my brother will participate in the A/F and sensor so 994US (for the a/f and sensor)divided 3 ways with us and zamani, so 330 more each and we share the a/f and sensor on the honor system.
Basically we have 3 systems at 1400 and one a/f sensor combo for 994 (supersize that please)

Joe, since you've had a dyno since 1970, how much HP do you think I'll end up with, 3.0, headers, S Cams, no cat, and your system AND electricsupercharger? just guess approx.

Zamani we could probably talk DP into it too!

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

That white aerial shot in my www had 212HP at wheels.
It had all of above discussion, 11.5 CR, extractors, 11.5mm Colombo cams and ported head.
In my books that is almost 250HP at engine.
This was street drivable with a slight burble at idle.
For your specific case,?????? 185HP @ wheels.The electric supercharger at that HP (airflow) will not add much.
I might suggest each person buys there own A/F sensor so that every one stays friends. No blaming that the sensor was damaged by HIM. Only $140 American

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

good call on the sensor. Joe I cant stress enough that you should develop a real supercharger bolt on kit for the older v6 cars for the world market. it doesnt exist!!! you have the know how and the reputation. We need the ponies out here, the riceboys are beating us up.
BTW: you estimate 185, what is the stock hp at the wheels?

By Julian on Unrecorded Date:

Here here Medici! Im with you. I wouldnt mind a blown 12v 3.0 75. Calling it snaggle puss is a good idea too. And have a fuel enrichment facililty, with spark plugs in the exhaust so you can shoot flames!

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Std 3.0 75 150 > 155 HP
Potenzata 160 > 165 HP

If this client of mine goes ahead with the supercharging, I will be able to give the end result.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

in the us we only have one 3.0, which one do we have?

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

The potenzata model uses the 164Q engine with the Motronic ECU. It will have a 60 tooth front engine pulley.

By Josh on Unrecorded Date:

Julian are you being sarcastic or are you really an A.L.F.A Freak like Medici?

By Julian on Unrecorded Date:

Well A.L.F.A if youre talking about Alfa Romeo- I am nearly to the point were I will be purchasing the very ECU that is being talked about on this page, and I will be fitting it to my 8v Tspark which will have a hairdryer hung off the side, which will be then be put into my 85 GTV four cylinder, so I gues im pretty hooked on all this Alfa Stuff!!
Just a little more money and were there! Hopefully be in the galleries soon :)

By Julian on Unrecorded Date:

Hey Joe- I looked at the Autronic page on your site, and that turbo GTV looks like a twinspark, with twin coils and a great looking custom plenum.
How much did this car make?

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

That car is called "the Hyper"
Its a twin spark which I made into a twin spark from an Alfetta head. This head has vertical plugs. There is a photo of another head I modified with angled plugs.
It has welded high angle inlet ports.
It makes 340HP at 7000RPM on 1.1 Bar
Crown wheel and pinions break easily.
I have made a multi pulley system on the front for the power steering, alternator, and water pump. It can also drive A/C but we never went that far.
As shown it uses many features of the Autronic ECU.
We competed in the "Dutton Rally" winning some of the events. In the "photo gallery" there is a shot of the car going sideways in that event.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

What kind of headers/extractors do you sell for the 3.0 SOHC V6? I was thinking of a Vince Pace unit, but maybe you have an alternative?

Thanks

Zamani

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

I have made extractors for the 24V convertions for GTV 6
I currently do not make for 12V engine. Pace, who buy the way I introduced to Alfa back at school, makes the 6's. I have made big bore for the 4 cylinder models.
The Shankle extractors should be OK. My recommendation would be a larger Diameter.

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

Balance bottom end,10.5:1 pistons, port heads, plenum and runner work, Hot Cams, free exhaust, headers, beninca's total package, I think 200HP at the wheels is achievable. Since I couldn't get the REX race simulator to work on my PC, I wonder what kind of numbers this combination would produce?

Joe: is there anything else you can think of besides installing a supercharger or turbo, to make this more powerful?

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Medici I had a friend with almost the same setup you mentioned. 197 bhp at the wheels at 6600 rpm.

3.0
11:1 JE pistons
164S cams
Shankle headers
side pipes (1 flowmaster muffler)
164S AFM and motronic ECU
Sperry big runners and plenum
Very mildly ported heads
Stock airbox (GTV6 2.5 version with snmall air hole) and air filter
Stock bottom end.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

I can't believe the potenzata uses a 24VQ motor.
This is factory? and here we are in the US trying to fuse 116's with 164's. What a shame.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

The million dollor question is... how fast do your cars go?
My standard 75 3.0 litre QV(12v) hit's the rev limiter easily in top.. that's over 150mph and speedo indicating pass 160mph..

Reg

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

Oh yes, the 2.0 gtv (alfetta) handles much better than gtv6.

Reg

By Julian on Unrecorded Date:

The Alfa 75 Potenziata is actually an early motronic 3.0- it is still a 12V. The 24v head V6s didnt come in until fiat did- 164 and 155 days- the 2.5 and 3.0 respectively. Even look at the SZ- it was an alfa- not a fiat.
I would guess that our Potenziata may be similar to your late model big bimper milanos stateside- or a euro 75QV- but I am not 100% sure.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

Potenziata = late model 75 QV in europe. Basically a 164L (not QV) engine in a 75. 3.0 SOHC 12V, 9.5:1 pistons and non-S/QV cams.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

Anon has explained why a 75 QV has 192bhp, 164 QV (12v) 200bhp and SZ 210bhp.
18 more bhp due to those headers, wilder cams and higher com. ratio.
But I often find with an alfa, if you muck about with it, it'll eat you up and spit you back out!!
The only people who know them are alfa themselves.
Personally, I've seen/read nothing that indicates that aftermarket modifications make a noticiable difference for a "sensible" price.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

To make more HP requires dollars.
I have made 400HP on a 24V 3.3 engine. But at what cost??
There will be a multi issue story coming out on www.autospeed.com There are lots of stories there with some great inside workings of various engines. search for beninca.
Porbably cost vs HP Votex supercharging.
The 197HP almost same setup still had restriction of AFM
In Australia the 75 potenzata had a motronic unit the SAME as 164Q and Q cams.In fact as a workshop with fussy clientel it was a tricky fine line on tappet clearance.Open and "its noisey" tight and the idle "burbles" Headaches!!!! Also the wiring of the computer had a connection for NthSth engines or East West.
Top speed is not all the answer... Its acceleration.
A 4 cylinder will out handle a GTV 6 due to the lower weight in the front.
Its also why I choose a 4 cylinder to go in Targa Tasmania. It is easier to get out of tricky situation.But don't go out buying 4 cylinders!!!
The Aussie 75Q did have q cams
I have engine and chassis dyno.
An east west configuration has a more efficient drive line and will deliver more HP at wheels.
That should answer above comments

By Paul Grant on Unrecorded Date:

Joe-I don't take anything you said in this forum as harsh.I think it is extremely informative.I have an 86 GTV6 and have limited funds to spend on it.I want more power but I have about $1700 in my budget to spend currently.S Cams I can get put on for $1000.00 US dollars.At this point I can either go with some sort of ECU or Euro Down pipes.Or if you have a better suggestion.I want good drivability at low rpm.Greg points out that certain companies in the USA such as Alfa Heaven and Sperry Valve Works have done dyno work with their ECU's with gains of 15 to 20 HP over stock.But I am open to suggestions.With $700 bucks left what else can I do to help in the power dept.Or should I wait an save up an extra $500.A stock 2.5 V6 in US trim puts out 154 HP and 152 LBS of torque.My mechanic in ABQ,NM has the ability to bore the engine out to a 2.8.That with S Cams,Oversize Valves,Ported Heads,a Kirshtein ECU he said would yeild about 220HP.This for $4700 bucks.Your thoughts

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Paul,

Do the downpipes first. In fact if you can wait till June I can sell you my ricambi pipes for cheap. I can even get you flex pipes if you want. And it already has an O2 sensor socket.

Also I notice that the GTV6 rearbox is of higher quality than the piece of shit Milano/75 unit. So all you really need is probably a stebro center unit. And if you like, ask Extrude hone to bore out your cast iron exhaust manifold and have it jet-hot coated on the inside and out

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Thank you for comments. I under stand the funds issue. What about reground cams to a Q grind.
It would be a cheaper way to go.
If you want good drivablity you must go to a sequential system. It becomes more important as the overlap increases. At full revs the advantage of sequential reduces as the injector is open for a long period of the engine cycle, but at low speed it can be only a few degrees of engine rotation. So group fire will "shoot" the fuel wrong in some cylinders.
Big bore has been tried before and its great for torque but it does not rev. One vehicle I tested only had 180HP at wheels. Have you driven a big bore vehicle?

By Christian on Unrecorded Date:

Hey joe, I been reading this stuff about the mods to the v6. I am looking to rebuild my 2.5 soon and was playing with the idea of putting a 3.0 litre in. Do you do this mod at ur workshop and what do you charge. Now u got me thinking with all this a/f ecu plug and play stuff!!! What do think is the best way to go for a car that does 400 klm city driving a week. Reliability is most important factor to me.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

All my work has always been for reliablity.
Given the option . Putting in a 3.0 is always better than spending money on a 2.5.
Fitting a 3.0 with ECU and modes discussed over these last days, will come out cheaper than tyring to get the same power out of a 2.5. Anyway it will require all of the 3.0 mods and more. The engine will need to be opened up and higher compression pistons fitted at least. Thats expensive.
In all of above discussions fitting A ECU will improve the vehicle drivability in "city" trafic.
Look at the modern car and how sweet they are to drive. Forget the power. You will be heading that way.

By twinspark6 on Unrecorded Date:

I am Interested in the system. I would not get the intake runners.i would have to wait longer.I really would be interested in"stage1". I would do this in about a month or two. Just did taxes and have to pay, not receive.I would just like to put the new ecu and accesories then little by little buy cams exhaust..etc..

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

To twinspark6
OK for stage 1. I did not understand your text.
To achieve a good "loom" price I need 5 orders.
I am guessing, but is " Mr twinspark6" in America or some other country which could be RHD. I will need to consider LHD anr RHD looms. They will need to be made compatable. Joe

By twinspark6 on Unrecorded Date:

Mr Beninca, I am actually in San Francisco. I hope that more than 5 people are interested in buying the ecu and hardware.Hey guysdoes it sound good? In my opinin this sounds good. I know that motec is really high priced. It can run up to 10 grand. All who want to buy say "I". hope there are at least 5 or even more out there so we can get a good price from a fellow alfista. thanks Joe. marcelo-82gtv6

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

Back to the subject of five packages, I have 2 systems, Zamani has 1, plus twinspark is 4 total,
the question is does twinspark want to share a 844 dollar A/F meter, is twinspark in the US?

Joe it sounds like were getting closer and closer to the magic 5.

basic price for stage I is 1540 and we all get our own a/f sensor, and we share the expensive a/f meter on the honor system. please email me alfa75@cts.com to finalize the details and time frame for the order, this is for anyone interested in the "pool". DP, Paul, Greg, Julian anyone...join us. it probably not going to happen till summer anyway...throw your hats in...it'll be fun!

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

I was talking to Larry Dickman Jr ( the only guy here in California with a '82 GTV6 3.0 24V) and he seemed interested in a set for his car. For his montreal he bought Electromotive TEC II and without the software or wiring loom, it was already expensive. And maybe my brother would be interested too for his 24V project.

For the SF Bay Area guys, we can all share the A/F meter and book a dyno session in Fremont. Should be cheap. Remember we have more leverage as a group.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Very good. Its saturday night and I probably will not touch keyboard to Late Monday.
Some of your car probably don't have a hall/vane switch in your distributor. Reluctor type. I will need to know exact spec at the time of order. It will not change price. Don't worry.
One point. If nothing is going to happen till summer, I cannot guarantee the ECU price as some components come from America. There probably will be a small increase.

By christian on Unrecorded Date:

joe, can u give me an email address where i can get some quotes for dropping a 3 litre in my car and some goodies to go on it. Would u suggest a 164 engine or a 75 3.0?? thanks

By Rex on Unrecorded Date:

I just picked up on this thread and I am interested in the ECU. My needs may be somewhat different from the rest of the group. My car has a 3 L motor with the very hot "Autodelta" cams. It also has nicely polished ports and inlet trumpets. We did not hog out the ports (a la Sperry), since we did not want air flow to stall at lower speeds, we just wanted everything to move more smoothly and quickly.

This car really pulls spectaularly once it gets spinning, but the idle is very rough. I have long believed that the hot cams and the "flapper" AFM don't get along. Joe B further suggests that sequential fuel injection and perhaps adjustable spark advance will further smooth a rough idle.

So what I am looking for is the minimum (Phase I) required to get my motor to run smoothly. I'm in upstate New York, so I don't think sharing an A/F meter with you guys on the left coast is such a good idea, but maybe I don't need this right now for what I want to do.

As for the price/performance ratio, it would probably be cheaper to pull the hot cams and substitute "S" cams, but I don't want to go there. These cams really make this thing drive like an Alfa (wild Italian beast!).

In the mean time, I plan to explore other avenues to smooth the idle (new plugs, rebuilt injectors, rebalanced drive shaft, etc.).

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

medici 2, zamani 1, twinspark 1, rex 1, thats five stage I, with 2 A/F Meter. Now we just have to work out the timing and logistics. I personally be ready by June for sure. This will be very cool because we could all help each other install the stuff. And still no sign of DP, Paul G, Greg Gordon, anyone else?

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

DP is in Minnesota. He will be back soon.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

To Christian... A 3.0 75 engine is the most compatible. I have contacts here in Austarlia for engines but that is no good for you.
To Rex..... I would fit stage 1, (ECU). This will make the vehicle much more drivable and more power buy all the "reasons" Threads above. You are definetly a chassis dyno tune job. The mixture needs to be measured to make ECU adjustments. Does your dyno guy have an A/F ratio meter of some kind? I don't know how to answer. The exploring of other avenues is a waste of time as the cam overlap is the problem.
To medici..... Yes OK After the order is placed I will need time to produce the looms. Half upfront and then the balance at time of shipment. This will also "lockin" price.
As for fun... With the advent of internet and a group of same vehicles, the files/maps can easily be sent around for comparison. This is in fact a "picture" of your engine. The logged files as well.... Internet drag racing. Hey maybe I've stumbled on something here!

By Rex on Unrecorded Date:

Joe: I don't exactly have a dyno guy. Things are sort of rudimentary here in upstate New York (near Albany). I count myself lucky to have a good Alfa shop in the area, but this car was built when I lived in St. Louis, Missouri, and not by my local guy here.

Does anyone have any suggestions on who I should hook up with to do the dyno work? Boston or New York areas are both possibilities. Who has a dyno and works on Alfas in these areas?

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

To Rex
With out a chassis dyno, in reality some of your mods are over ambitious. But with an A/F ratio meter, Autotune, some open roads, the logging facility, and some suggestions from me, you should be able to Map the vehicle your self.

By christian on Unrecorded Date:

joe...im in sydney!!!. Lets talk business for the 3.0 litre.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

To Christian
If you are in Sydney down under, email me or phone
www.beninca.com.au

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Joe,

Should I have my injector cleaned. These are the low impedence 2-3 ohms (peak and hold) injectors from the 3.0 L-Jet. I think they flow about 185cc/min (when clean). Is this adequate for a 220-230 bhp engine? I think you did say that the Autronic can drive low and high impedance injectors.

This is assuming max of 85% duty cycle for all the injectors and at 43 PSI (L-jet is only 34 PSI at normal throttle and 37 PSI instantaneous acceleration). I think that's as high as it can run before just leaking.

Also headers, seems that no one has any. Execpt for Vince Pace but maybe a little small for the 3.0? But I really want a set. Now can anyone of you from down under wrap me up a set and send me? Used ones are ok.

Thanks.

Zamani

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

To Vamani
The 3.0 injectors are OK and at 70psi will produce over 240HP at engine. For Autronic that is low current.
Yes Vinni from PACE has 1.5 inch Diam extractors and larger would be better. I have 24V extractors but not 12V engine. The demand is not enough for me to manufacture.
Thanks Joe

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

so joe are you saying that one should increase psi with an adjustable regulator if we have some mods? would this be ok with modified ljet?
zamani why dont you just buy some shankles?

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

To medici
NO. If you increase the fuel pressure with out any other change in the vehicle then the mixture will richen by (new pressure/old pressure)^1/2
ie the square root of ratio. This will change at all RPM and Load.
Go to 70 psi so that you do not have to buy new injectors when fitting an After market ECU.
Also the spray droplets become finer.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

70 PSI??? Hey won't my poor injectors start leaking? Or will my fuel hoses just burst? I've heard of 45-50, but 70 PSI on stock Jetronic injectors (cleaned of course) but still.. Hope you're right...

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

There are many vehicles running with this type of increase in fuel pressure.

By Anonymous For Now on Unrecorded Date:

All, let's buy the stuff in late May/early June. How's that

By medici on Unrecorded Date:

I'm in.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

Can we just use Denso or normal Bosch O2 sensor? They're cheaper. Just curious.

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

Unfortunatly you need to use the sensor supplied.
I cannot guarantee the accuracy otherwise.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

The GTV 6 came with 195VR60 Pirelli P6 from the factory. I got 215/60 on mine. They fit perfect.

130 MPH is minimum 145 possible depending on what day the car was made, no kidding Alfas have a big spread in HP from median.

Check your Ignition Wires / plugs / distributor finger. Sometimes the sparc suppression resistors go to infinity and it shows in high rpm power or lack thereof. Even the plugs have resistors that could go bad. A few K-ohm is all you should have.

I tossed all resistors, i.e Resistive IGN wires, Resistor in Rotor, out and replaced IGN wires with MSD 8mm wires. Then added an MSD 6 + Tach adaptor and she revs like hell (6500 in 5th)

Do this only if you understand Ignition Systems though ( I worked for an OEM for a while).

By nijs on Unrecorded Date:

I didn't work for an OEM and , nor am I hampered by any special knowledge about ignition wires. But mine need replacing; they are original, very old and brittle. Anonymous, could you please explain what you did in normal English (like what the hell is a 6+ Tach adaptor)? Also I could use some advice on choice of HT leads: should I stick with OEM, go for Magnecor, or any other brand... Just for street use, no racing plans yet ;-)

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

For ignition leads stick with the wire wound Magnecor leads. This has good noise suppression and good spark performance. After assembling leads check with an ohm meter and check the resistance. It should be less than 5000 ohm.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Joe, what do you think of the SZ headers? Any good? Or should I go with Pace headers. Also, can anyone give me Vince's contact number. I want some headers....

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

SZ headers would be the best.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Hmmm.... how confusing, a few months ago Sandro Tirabassi said SZ headers were no better than stock 3.0 cast iron headers. In fact the cast iron may be better for street use since they can retain more heat. OK I'm confused.

By marcel on Unrecorded Date:

SZ headers have 2 advantages at least: they are much lighter and they dont crack so easy ( if at all)If they flow better i cant say because i dont have them.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

OK well I have another piece of info that seems to be supporting our move towards Autronic. The problem with the Motronic flap (or maybe even hotwire) is that it measured air flow. And aggresive cams may confuse the motronic system because of more overlap hence you have air maybe very irregular airflow in the intake system. So in cases like this an airflow system like the motronic or jetronic is not able to give the correct amount of fuel. That's why an MAP sensor is more desireable than an MAF/AFM sensor.

What do you guys think? Joe? Oh yeah I picked this up from an article in European Car.

Joe, do you have a turbo system for the 164 TS or 155 TS 8V? My uncle is interested.

Thanks.

Zamani

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

You guys are finding out info that supports the removal of the AFM. OK
There has been no interest in turboing a 6 cylinder in Australia and the 155 never came here.

The 8V TS is a fantastic engine to turbo.
I have many parts for this installation.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

He has a 164 TS. Looking for a bolt on. I guess if you have a turbo manifold, that's all that he needs. All other plumbing can be done locally. As for fuelling, can a 5th injector (ok I know sacrilage) be used instead of changing to a new ECU? I understand that with a high rate FPR, it will run rich all over the rev range, but maybe all needs to be done for "stage 1" is to have a 5th injector to kick in at higher revs and at wider throttle angles. Is this an acceptable short term approach?

By Julian on Unrecorded Date:

Definitely not Zamani! I expected better than this from you! There is no control over how much fuel is going in! It just sits there and sprays indescriminately! This is OK for a Nissan or Honda engine which is the epitomy of heartless engineering, but is not good enough for Alfa Romeo!!!!!

By Joe Beninca on Unrecorded Date:

With a 5th injector you get over fueling on the start of over run or when you back off power. The manifold is full of fuel and it needs to be used up and so engine goes rich.

Back on Autronic ECU you can chooce to map with Map pressure or by throttle position. Autronic can also be mapped by throttle position but at the same time using a manifold pressure signal, but only using 1 map. Its difficult to explain but this feature allows a turbo multi throttle engine to be mapped with out the mixture going rich on small throttle openings. This feature is brilliant for the SR20 nissan turbo engines.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

Hey where is the International Auto Parts Headers? I have the latest catalog, but no headers for the V6. I waited 10 days for the catalog for nothing. This sucks!

By karmat on Unrecorded Date:

Actually, they are in there. At least, if you have the latest catalog. I can't remember exactly where they are, but they're with all the other exhaust parts. I think they are in the bottom right hand corner of the page.

By Jerry in Houston on Unrecorded Date:

They are in Charlottesville, Virginia, USA

By Zamani (synvpn.synplicity.com - 209.157.48.1) on Unrecorded Date:

Guys,

The Autronic Model A A?F meter and the BOSCH LSM-11 wideband sensor is one of the best out there. And for it's price that Joe Beninca is selling, it's a good deal. Expensive in absoulte terms, but cheap in relative terms.

Even HITman (Haltech tuner) thinks that the Autronic A/F meter model A is great.

Zamani

By andrew.b (acbf0ee4.ipt.aol.com - 172.191.14.228) on Unrecorded Date:

Okay chaps how about this,

You have your alfa 3.0 engine with cams, larger intake runners, polished ports, adj.fuel regulator ect.

Here's my theory for a cheaper programmable system.

convert to ML4.1 motronic, but, loose the airflow meter and replace with 3.5" hot-wire maf (mass airflow meter like the new 24v V6) and 4" cold air intake system

A unichip piggyback ecu, which is used to convert signal from maf meter. This can also alter ignition advance & fuel by +/- 50%. Uses all standard factory sensors.

Actually it can accept MAF,TPS,MAP for the input, and converts the signal so the ML4.1 will understand.

I've chosen MAF/hotwire because the new alfa's use this system, but you may prefer MAP or TPS

Any comments??

Andrew

By Zamani (synvpn.synplicity.com - 209.157.48.1) on Unrecorded Date:

Andrew,

How do you convert the ML4.1 from a 164 or 75 QV to use the MAF? I think the hotwire MAF still measures air flow and it has a linear output voltage scale. But the FLAP MAF is non-linear. I know it's possible to convert, but how? Have you done it? Actually I wonder if the latest Spider 3.0 SOHC 12V (just before the put in a 24V) uses the FLAP MAF. That would be a straight conversion...

By Andrew.b (acbc4013.ipt.aol.com - 172.188.64.19) on Unrecorded Date:

Zamani

The unichip ecu is programmable with its own software to accept various engine load sensors, this can be the original AFM, or hotwire MAF, manifold air pressure-MAP, or TPS.

With the GTV6 I replaced AFM with Hotwire MAF, and configured the Unichip (via the software) to accept hotwire MAF as the load input. It then intecepts the signal, and converts this so ML4.1 still thinks it has the original AFM.

It can adjust the fuel & ignition timing +/- 50%

Basically this gives me a fully programmable system able to change fuel and ignition curves to accomodate any further tuning, e.g cams, exhaust, turbocharging. And i can remove and keep for another car, and retrofit the original AFM if need be.

Hope this helps

Andrew

By Zamani (synvpn.synplicity.com - 209.157.48.1) on Unrecorded Date:

Hey that's cool!

I have a motronic ECU, all I have to do is get some injectors and the SZ or 75 QV crank pulley. Is your waterpump the motronic kind too? I've seen photos of a 75 QV waterpump and it looks like the pulley is different. Funny my bro has the SZ crank pulley and it works with the standard 2.5/3.0 L-Jetronic waterpump.

Anyway my questions:
Which MAF are you using (from what car) ?
How difficult is it to use the UNICHIP ?

Actually I want go with Autronic, but it's very expensive, I know it's VERY good if not THE BEST, but, mate I don't have the dosh!

Zamani

By andrew.b (acbc4013.ipt.aol.com - 172.188.64.19) on Unrecorded Date:

Zamani

MAF meter is bosch as used in bmw 3 series.

I used a 75 motronic engine for the conversion, but it's easy to upgrade an early 3.0 to motronic, as I'm sure you know.

As for the Unichip, it couldn't be easier.

It is a piggyback ecu, so you retain all the good things from the ML4.1, like smooth cold start, easy idle control, part throttle economy, cheap spares availability ect...

After fitting needed less than 45 mins on rolling road to fully map.

If you need more help try this web site...

http://www.theracersgroup.com/enginemanagement.html

hope this helps.

You may see car featured in AutoItalia soon, if I get time to take some pic's.

Andrew.B

By andrew.b (acbc4013.ipt.aol.com - 172.188.64.19) on Unrecorded Date:

Zamani

MAF meter is bosch as used in bmw 3 series.

I used a 75 motronic engine for the conversion, but it's easy to upgrade an early 3.0 to motronic, as I'm sure you know.

As for the Unichip, it couldn't be easier.

It is a piggyback ecu, so you retain all the good things from the ML4.1, like smooth cold start, easy idle control, part throttle economy, cheap spares availability ect...

After fitting needed less than 45 mins on rolling road to fully map.

If you need more help try this web site...

http://www.theracersgroup.com/enginemanagement.html

hope this helps.

You may see car featured in AutoItalia soon, if I get time to take some pic's.

Andrew.B

By Paul Grant (santafe2.ins-exchange.com - 204.134.91.162) on Unrecorded Date:

So Andrew what would the cost be in US dollars to convert from my LJet to Motronic using the unichip?Figuring that I would keep my stock 2.5 on my GTV6.Also what kind of power gain would we be talking about.From the discussion here the autotronic would run anywhere from $1200 to $1500 figuring that you did all the installation yourself.Paul

By Zamani (synvpn.synplicity.com - 209.157.48.1) on Unrecorded Date:

Andrew,

How much did the UNICHIP cost? And how about the power gains? I think you have the red '84 GTV6 in the gallery with the stock wheels?

By andrew.b (acbc4013.ipt.aol.com - 172.188.64.19) on Unrecorded Date:

Zamani

Its around 425 for the unichip, which includes fitting to the car,the wiring, and mapping on the rollers.

However, this is for fitting to a car with standard ML4.1 and AFM. I paid slightly more for the extra work involved in mapping from scratch with MAS.

I supplied the MAS meter 95 S/H from smashed BMW3 series with only 8K from new, together with new cone air filter and samco hosing.

Power gains were excellent, around 17/20hp, which may not sound huge, but the most noticable gains were in torque. The throttle response and drivability change was like night & day.

Part throttle acceleration was the most impressive.

Oh, my car is not in the gallery by the way, which is strange, as I do have an '84 red GTV??

But It may be in AutoItalia when I get some time.

Cheers

Andrew

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Andrew,

20 bhp is quite impressive. So do you have about 200+ bhp now? I have about 190 bhp. Please let me know! Thanks!

By andrew.b (acbeefd2.ipt.aol.com - 172.190.239.210) on Unrecorded Date:

zamani

My gtv6 has 223 genuine bhp.

C&B (autodelta) S2 cams
Lightly machined & polished intake runners
Above ecu mods
adjustable fuel pressure reg
Tubular custom manifolds

Thats all

Andrew

By Gary ( - 213.0.68.84) on Unrecorded Date:

3.0l or 2.5l ? Sorry if this sounds like a daft question?

By Luis (62-36-149-221.dialup.uni2.es - 62.36.149.221) on Unrecorded Date:

Hi Andrew, other questions:
Rev limiter?
223 bhp but engine rpms?
Stock injectors?
Valve springs?
Stock valves?
stock pistons?

Luis

By Paul Grant (santafe2.ins-exchange.com - 204.134.91.162) on Unrecorded Date:

Another question where would one purchase a Motronic ECU as it appears this cannot be done on the stock L-Jet.Anybody know the cost?Paul

By andrew.b (acbd6aa1.ipt.aol.com - 172.189.106.161) on Unrecorded Date:

1. Gary: 3.0 from 75.

2. Luis: Rev limiter - 6750 max power @6520

Uses standard Motronic injectors (yellow)
Standard valves/springs
Standard pistons - 10:1cr

3. Paul: If you can find a complete system from alfa 75 motronic 1991 on, that will be best, or from early alfa 164 3.0, with slight mods to the injection wiring loom. Cost ??? 150??

Cheers
A

By Zamani (acad61b4.ipt.aol.com - 172.173.97.180) on Unrecorded Date:

Hmmm.... I thought that the 75 3.0 QV/Potenziata had the 9.5:1 pistons like the 164 Lusso. I guess I'm wrong.

By andrew.b (acbcb16e.ipt.aol.com - 172.188.177.110) on Unrecorded Date:

Zamani,

As far as I understand, same pistons as SZ - 10:1

What mod's have you carried out to your gtv6??

Andrew

By Zamani (acba6e4a.ipt.aol.com - 172.186.110.74) on Unrecorded Date:

Hi Andrew,

I haven't done much:
3.0 9.5:1 pistons (stock 3.0 V6)
164 QV cams
SZ extractors/headers
2.5" custom exhaust (photos at egroups' alfa75)
K&N panel filter
a few other suspension mods, 16" Team dynamics DTM wheels.

I'm thinking of either getting the motronic+unichip+hot wire afm that you have or just going with an aftermarket EFI system. Where can I get a complete harness, and injectors from a 75 QV in UK for a good price? Know of any good wreckers yard?

By jk1970 on Unrecorded Date:

Hi,

I am new at this discussion, but I would like to offer another point of view on the autronic.

I have a Milano Verde, and I am just starting to get into engine mods, having finished with the customary suspension mods, and putting the car back together.

I agree that if all you are looking for is 5-10hp increase then the Autronic might be an overkill, but I think some of us(?) here might be looking at their Alfa as a car that they will want to keep long term.

In such an event one does not know what he may decide to do tomorrow, or ideas might be breeding already in one's head.

So whether its a 24V transplant, or taking the car twin turbo, or speed balancing it and reving it to 1,000,000 rpm (! just joking) it seems to me that the autronic is the system that is more open ended in offering compatibility with various options to fit any scenario.

I have already invested some money on "accessories" and there is nothing more painful than buying things that you know will be end of lifed soon, because your other mods down the road will soon outpace them.

Again, this is my opinion only, and for those who only want some performance increase, I think the other solutions are more than valid.

I know that I have done a lot of soul/pocket searching, and as soon as things settle down in my field of work, I will go for the autronic.

One final thought for those of us in "clean air" states, with emission testing programs.

I for one am in Illinois, and I have had the pleasure of being introduced to the rolling dyno tests here, so any mods that pass smog at idle and 4000 rpm, may not do very well in a dynamic type of test if the car before was marginal.

Forza di Alfa! (did I say that right?)

Joseph
88 Milano Verde (a.k.a. "the money pit")

By RegB ( - 195.92.205.70) on Unrecorded Date:

Now, I was wondering, I understand that AUTRONIC uses standard fuel injectors and sensors and the increase in power stems from the removal of the "restrictive" AFM, is this true? Do the injectors have the same duty cycle?

By Julian (gw.jpalmer.com.au - 203.26.11.244) on Unrecorded Date:

No No no- not at all- The AFM is a restriction in the inlet path the air has to take- it creates a turbulent point well before turbulent air actually helps power- which is when it has fuel injected into its path. Removing it has its benefits, and they aren't insignificant, but the main purpose of these ECUs is different.
What autronic, and other programmable management computers allow you to do, is to remove the factory's fuel and timing curves, and replace them with more aggressive ignition timing, this being more suitable to making ultimate power and torque throughout the rev range. Now as you add a set of cams, and say, some valves springs, with a head port and tuned length set of extractors and a full exhaust- you can change the way the motor gets its fuel, and blows it up to suit the motor itself- the factory must take into account the fact that not every person will change their oil on time, or plugs, or will rev the shit out of it when its cold- they cant afford to get aggressive without worrying about long term affects and reliability, so they simply take power away from the motor by reducing its ability to pull revs- they wind back ignition timing up top, and it simply wont make power up there will it? bad batch of fuel etc- all the same reasons. What use are cams etc when youre still trying to run the motor on factory ignition curves? None!
As for duty cycle of injectors and what not- the Autronic just needs to know what the size and impedance of the fuel injectors are- they will only run out of duty if you are making more power than they can flow fuel. The Autronic will allow sequential injection also, which means fuel isnt sitting on top of the inlet valves waiting for them to open- it has a clean path once squireted into the air, through the runners into the combustion chamber.
So to answer- injectors always remain on the same duty cycle no matter what is firing them- the duty cycle becomes 100% when they cant flow enough fuel, and must never close, in order to get the right amount of fuel to the motor, in order to make the power required.
Hope this helps.

By RegB (spider-loh-tb053.proxy.aol.com - 195.93.33.173) on Unrecorded Date:

Ah, yes, what your saying is that fuel/air ratio stays the same and power basically comes reprogrammed ignition. So, what kind of increase on a basic 2.5 with an Autronic setup? Anyone out there was modified 2.5 or 3.0 with AUTRONIC?

By Julian (gw.jpalmer.com.au - 203.26.11.244) on Unrecorded Date:

Yes- and you can change the air fuel ratio too- say in a factory situation, like in Subaru's WRX- the car simply runs too rich to make power properly- this keeps detonation away with bad fuel, and also keeps the exhaust temperature under control. In this situation, when you are experiencing ratios in the area of 10:1, under only about 10psi of boost, you need to move it off to about 12:1 to actually experience any power. I dont think Alfas run like that, but under higher compression circumstances, like my V6 (that i now own!!! YES!!!), the car WILL need more fuel throughout the rev range.
In Australia, I would say that we have more modified cars per capita, and more motor racing cars per capita, than anywhere else in the world- so this is common on cars that are modified- Programmable management is the only way to properly control a car with internal modifications- and dont think that anything less than a Haltech, Motec, or Autronic will make your car anything like a factory computer- if you skimp on the dough, then you lose the quality, and it will never drive like a factory car would.
A stock 2.5 could be expected to make about 20-30 more HP just by fitting the Autronic- and a 3.0 about the same- this is just growth potential in the motor that the factory leaves untapped- for the reasons I pointed out above- if you want the power, there is no other way.

By Julian (gw.jpalmer.com.au - 203.26.11.244) on Unrecorded Date:

Here is a recap of what Joe Beninca

Hello all. Sorry for delay but I have to physically work and at home I have a 1 year old and a new baby. It keeps me from immediate resonses.The Autronic "kit" for a 2.5 or 3.0 requires an Autronic ECU. $1586. The pressure sensor is built in. A gear tooth crank sensor and mount fitted in the bell housing uni access hole. $148. A Throttle potentiometer and adaptor plate.$230. The wiring loom, air temp sensor, software and logging is included in ECU price. Water temp uses original. OK. The reference sensor will use the original hall sensor and vane in distributor. Just cut off 5 vanes leaving 1. An adaptor for the throttle body to suit 4 inch diameter pipe.$50. It seems you are going to put a unifilter under the wheel arch. Thats OK. COLD AIR!!!! The standard ignition module is no good so I need to supply one. $185. Now do you guys want to terminate the wiring loom to all the sensors? etc. This is time consuming. I can build them but at $400 each for 5 off. Idealy new injectors but you can squeeze a little more by increasing pressure to 70PSI. You can probably buy a regulator cheaper in America.
The autotune needs a good A/F ratio meter other wise its a waste. The autotune "looks" at the A/F ratio in exhaust and adjusts the fuel to bring to "target" A/F ratio. How are you guys going to measure A/F ratio anyway? Those simple "A/F kits" are very temperature sensitive and can be way off. I will supply a 3.0 modified engine file which will be similar but not exact. Its the aerial shot of the white GTV in my www. I see this as being your biggest problem. You will all need good tuners in your areas. HP gains.... Together with plenub,runners and ECU you should gain 20HP. You will need a "better" centre muffler,straight through.
Any other mods you make can then be tuned yourselves. I would not suggest tuning the vehicles without a chassis dyno, at least in the beginning. If you keep the vehicles the same then you can share the ECU calibration files

By RegB ( - 195.92.205.70) on Unrecorded Date:

So, reprogrammed ignition and the removal of AFM and it's trunking, liberates 20 odd hp? BOSCH L-jet must be shit. Can you fit knock-sensor to it?

By Julian (gw.jpalmer.com.au - 203.26.11.244) on Unrecorded Date:

L Jet isnt shit compared to K Jet! Its just old technology- and you need someway of telling a computer how much air its giving to the motor- throttle position helps- but you still need to know how much air is going through.

You can fit a knock sensor to anything really- its all about cost, type, and whether or not your sensor is good enough to detect detonation when it is really light. Autronic is a very powerful system- things like traction control, turbo antilag, adjustment through points such as 1 rpm- are all available through it, but I dont know how you would run a knock sensor with it- it may have one in there somewhere, but features like this in an ECU the standard of an Autronic start to push the cost up.
Naturally aspirated- you would not have to worry about detonation unless you were running a static comp ratio of near 12.5:1 or above, and a turbo car if tuned properly (and I mean PROPERLY) will only detonate if you get a bad batch of fuel on a hot day- simply turn the boost down. little gadgets like knock sensors are, I believe anyway- what motorsport people need- if you get a factory one (ie E36 M3s) then all well, but I wouldnt ever bother fitting one- like I said- tune it properly, and if it pings, raise the octane of the fuel, or retard timing, or decrease boost.

By RegB ( - 195.92.205.70) on Unrecorded Date:

Hmmmm, it seems like BOSCH L-jet has conservative ignition and fuel profiles for people like me who want to able to drive round at 1000rpm in 5th with out pinging and not have to worry about it untill the next service.

By Brian H. ( - 66.7.173.71) on Unrecorded Date:

REG,

Seriously, you drive an Alfa V-6 around at 1000 rpm ?
For long periods of time ? What do your plugs look like ?
I had heard that it was unwise to load this engine like that...

Just curious, Brian H.

By RegB ( - 195.92.205.70) on Unrecorded Date:

It is a 92' 3.0 75qv(motronic). Even with 5 fat xxxxxxx's in the car, including me, it still doesn't ping at that rpm!
In fact I advanced the ignition the other day, made no difference to it's torque (mighty as ever!) but now it's even more explosive past 120mph.
Not as good on fuel as my old 89' 3.0 though & I'd glady forsake torque for some more power.
Oh yeah, plugs are fine.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Anybody have maps to share for Autronic? I wanna try some maps. So far my maps make my car lose power at the top.

By Chip on Unrecorded Date:

I thought Beninca included baseline maps with the autronic... dont they work?

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

He did but it doesn't seem to work too well for power. The thing is he mapped it for a QV I think which has 45 psi fuel regulators. I run 37 psi still. I will remap the fuel table tomorrow using autotune and the wideband O2 sensor. But ignition map is still guess work.

I'll go ask my friend who has the 146 16V Turbo what he uses to detect knock. Apparently he bought this device from an Lotus Elise Turbo owner to detect knock.

BTW, my new intake is cool. 3" PVC drainpipe ($0.84c) and 90" thick rubbers hose ($9.99 and fits great!!!). I could have gone for the $85 metal intake made for Civics... but the price difference made me sway the OSH/Home Depot route 8-).

By Dennis de Rooy on Unrecorded Date:

Pictures of the intake! Pictures of the intake! We want pictures of the intake!

I thought you had an adjustable fuel regulator? The motronic run 3.0 bar instead of 2.5 bar (psi ?).

By Chip on Unrecorded Date:

The Knocklink is pretty popular with the Subie guys... you could give that a try. I think it costs around $100 for the unit and a knock sensor.

PICTURES!!!

By Greg Gordon on Unrecorded Date:

I tried one of those knock sensors once and could never get it to work right. It turns out the stupid thing interpreted my 392 Hemi's mechanical lifters as knocking and kept retarding the timing when it did not need too.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

I'm afraid to buy those as the V6's solid lifters and push rod configuration may be too noisy.

Maybe I'll build my own like that on Autospeed.com.

By Chip on Unrecorded Date:

The knock link is just a display box... it doesn't
retard timing, just supposedly lets you know
when knock is happening and how bad.

You can tune them... basically
desensitize it until it doesnt detect normal
engine noise as being knock. But then it may
not be able to hear knock over all that
clattering....

Later Alfa V6s had knock sensors didn't they?
How did they deal with the extra valvetrain
noise? Maybe you could get a sensor from
one of those cars?

By Julian on Unrecorded Date:

BMW use a little microphone to detect it- i think its some sort of crystal- once it detects it, it retards timing, and adds fuel- straight away. Friends found it invluable when tuning their Turbo M3 and M coupe-

Most are just microphones, that "hear" the tink tink of uncontrolled fuel burn. Knock link is like this. I dont know much about Link's devices, but from what I hear, they are fairly primitive. AVO seems to use them though, and they have a decent track record with building cars, so they cant be that bad.

Hey Chip- they wouldnt work- the 4 cam V6s use direct valve actuation off the cams I think, whereas the 2.5/3.0 12v motors use inverse valve actuation with the rocker arms- the follow-through of the cams hitting the rockers means a lot more noise- you need to mount something in the block like BMW did- and even then, I dont think they have knock sensors on their single cam four cyl 318 motors- only on the 2 cam iS motors. Must be what Greg is talking about.

By Anonymous on Unrecorded Date:

24V = hydraulic lifters, and no pushrods and rocker arms.

By Ben Bishop on Unrecorded Date:

The poor bloody thing wouldn't have a hope with the cams in my car...no 'soft' lifter ramp to keep tappet noise down....unlike the factory cams. People keep suggesting i should tension my cam chain....lol, but how they don't work out that its got lumpy cams when it sits there with a lumpy-ish idle at 1000-1100rpm....

That crystal Jules is a Piezo, squish it and it gives off a charge...gassless barbecue lighters work the same way, except the piezo is being used as a microphone. The Best knock sensors use a modified spark plug with a Kistler pressure transducer in it, and if the rate of cylinder pressure rise is too quick, then you know its knocking, well before a microphone type knows. Mind you at $3000 a plug plus the charge amplifiers and the data aquisition and analysis software, its not really one for most tuning shops, BUT alot of big race teams use them during engine development.

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Look Ma, NO AFM !

intake1
Basically it consists of 7 main parts, 3" ID PVC pipe, PVC pipe adaptor, K&N filter, 2 X 1/2" vacuum hose fittings and a 3" 90 degree bend rubber hose.

intake2
Joined together

intake3
In the car.


3" ID PVC pipe $0.84
PVC pipe adaptor $1.39
K&N filter $45.00
2 X 1/2" vacuum hose fittings $1.98
3" 90 degree bend rubber hose $8.99
Total cost: $58.20

By Zamani on Unrecorded Date:

Ben,

Were you referring to this type of pressure sensor?

http://www.ngkntk.co.jp/english/products/e_guide/sensors/p_08.html


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