RS racing coil over suspension

Alfa Romeo GTV6 Forum: VENDOR & Product Reviews: RS racing coil over suspension
By Dennis de Rooy on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 05:03 am:

fullset
rear
rightfront
leftfront

By Dennis de Rooy on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 05:15 am:

Hi Guys,

Last week I bought a RS racing coil over suspension for the GTV, but as it isn't ready for now, I mounted it to my daily driver 75 TS for now.

First, I will give some background info on RS racing and the set. Rs racing is owned by Ron Simons. A race driver and instructor, wich races a GTV6 3.5 24V in the dutch Trofeo and a Ferrari 308. He also gives driver courses on the Nordschleife and Spa Francorchamps with 75 TS. You might have seen his blue GTv6 on the frontpage of this site or in the Gallery. Else, you might have seen him on video in a white 75TS kicking a Skoda's ass on the Nordschleife.

The set is developed by Ron and Henk Thuis (himself a race-driver in a 75 and the Dutch Suspension Guru). All the Alfa's in the dutch Trofeo have Intrax suspension developed by Henk Thuis. The set is also Intrax. It is fully height adjustable (once you lowered the front-end) and the front uses a coilover where the rear has the spring and shock on the original mounting points. This was done because of the lack of strength in the rear mounting points to use a coilover. The set is especially developed for the Transaxle and for use on the Nordschleife. This is quite a bumpy track, so it isn't too hard for street use (It's just really firm :) ). The 2.0 transaxles use 100kg springs on the front coilovers and the V6's 125 kg. Rear stays the same.

This saturday me and a friend mounted the set on my 75 TS, as standard as it gets. We had to lower the front first and to my disbelief it all went very fast and easy. We put it down two teeth and then fitted the stuff. It all took about 6 hours, which isn't that bad. I didn't have any time left to fit the 28 mm front swaybar I had already bought from Ron Simons, so I did that yesterday evening. When we went for the first test drive I was amazed how the car had transformed. It was obvious I had some final adjustments to make as I wasn't quite satisfied how the front end behaved. In tight corners, it would understeer to much and if you went in a bit too fast it would understeer first and then turn in to snap oversteer. But all things considered I was very impressed. I didn't lower it too much as I was afraid i couldn't get over the speed-bumps to get home.

Last night I fitted the front sway bar and lowered the car some more, because I got home saturday night without any problems. It is still 1cm higher then Ron's ideal setting, but it is fine for street use. And that is great about this set! If I wanna go to a trackday I can lower the car another cm in about half an hour. Because I had been working late and had some problems getting the bushings of the swaybar off, I finished the car at 12.45 am. Time for a testdrive!

Immediately I noticed the stiffer front end, but I had to warm the engine up first. The good thing about driving at a weeknight is, you hardly see other cars. I went to my favorite back road and WHOOOO. The car handles like a dream! Hardly any understeer and a slight oversteer. Just the way I love it. The front end is very firm and you just point the nose where you wanna go and the car just goes there. As it was still a public road, the temp. below zero and my tyres not to grippy at those temps, I held some reserves. However i noticed I had more reserves at speeds I normally drive to the max on a public road. The car doesn't move in corners, it stays flat! I kept on driving for an hour, because I couldn't get enough and was reaching speeds in corners I could only dream of with my GTV or yellow Koni/eibach packed 33. I haven't had a grin like that, since, well...... I drove my GTV for the first time. This with 140 hp 75 TS! Imagine what it will do with my 220+ GTV6 when I get it ready!

The set isn't cheap (read expensive) but it is one of the best investments I have ever done in a car. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Ron Simons for the advice and time he has given me and the awesome set he developed. I haven't had a grin like that for ages and when I think of last night it's hard not to smile. If you guys have any questions you can ask them here, mail me or have a look at http://www.rsracing.nl or http://www.75experience.nl

By paul uk on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 09:15 am:

Hi Dennis,
I would like to ask you what the adjustable bolt is in the front left photo, is it in place of the anti roll bar???

Cheers
Paul uk

By Dennis on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 10:13 am:

Hi Paul,

They are rod-ends and they replace the coonection between the bar and lower a-arm. Instead of soft rubber bushings they 've got a bearing in the head. It's to eliminate any play, thus resulting in a stiffer front end. It isn't really necessary, they're expensive but they outlast the rubber ones by far.

By andrew.b on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 01:03 pm:

Hi Dennis

I am also interested in this kit for my road/trackday car, I have a few question for you, if you could help I would be most grateful

Do you know if the rear springs are stiffer than standard?? If so, do you know the actual spring rates for the rear spring.

Sounds like the kit is really well developed.

Would you say that it only really works with the front roll bar? or did you find it was still very good with the standard roll bar and just the springs and dampers??

Is the kit supplied with the roll bar as an option??

Did you use the 28mm or the 30mm??

Many thanks for any help

Andrew.b

By paul uk on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 01:42 pm:

Hi Dennis,
So where can I get hold of these parts and do they replace the front anti roll bar?? How much do these parts cost??

Cheers
Paul uk

By Ben on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 04:30 pm:

Erm 100 and 125kg per what spring rates?
normally spring rates are expressed in lb/in or kg/mm or even kg/cm, but 100kg/cm sound extreme (560lb/in...)
If you measure the spring dimensions i have a spreadsheet to calculate them with, I would be very interested to know...

By Zamani on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 04:52 pm:

yeah strange. 560 lb/in is already extreme in itself. Torsion bars, I heard were around 200 lb/in, stock.

If it was kg/m it would be 56 lb/in which is not much at all. I'm using 150 lb/in springs. Or was it 100lb/in....

By Dennis on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 12:46 am:

The set cost me 995 Euro and the sway-bar 115 Euro (all Excl. VAT). The set was at a special introduction offer and normally costs 1295 Euro excl. VAT. Maybe if you're fast you can get it for the same price as me, I don't know.

I fitted the 28 mm front sway bar, because it is my road car and some say you need to weld reinforcement plates for the 30 mm. The kit is good without, but perfect with the sway bar. The 30 mm should make it really sharp though. (Now where is my welding torch :) )

I'll ask for the spring rates and stuff. I don't know......

If you want to purchase a set you can contact Ron at ron@rsracing.nl

By Anonymous on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 07:55 am:

what about body crack?

any problems?

By Ben on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 04:57 pm:

Hey Dennis, can you measure how long the swaybar is along tubular section (i know its not hollow but my brain isn't working at the moment and I don't know how else to describe it....) and how long the arms are? I've got a slightly dodgy locally made bar that i want to replace but shipping from the Netherlands would kill me... but if I can fabricate one from locally available Roundy racer parts...

By Dennis on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 12:13 am:

Crap, Ben, now you ask me... I had it off the car last monday. Do you also need to know ho many cm the "bend" is in the arms (my brain isn't working either)? I don't get around to it untill mondaynight, sorry.

Anon, don't know. I have the set on the car for a week.

By andrewg on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 12:09 pm:

You must remember that you cannot compare spring rates of coil springs to that of torsion bars. Coil spring rates are static, torsion bar rates are given at the wheel. The IMSA Milano has a front coil over setup and rear stockcar springs. I have somewhere the actual calculations for converting a GTV6/Milano with coilovers to wheel rates. The actual wheel rate was something like 70-75% of the static rate. The stock torsion bar rates were under 100 lbs/in and the hot Shankle SS setup was around 180 lbs/in. Actual spring rates vary depending on tires, track, and driver preferences.

ANDREWG

By Greg Gordon on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 02:18 pm:

Hey Andrew are you going to TMS anytime soon?

By ANDREWG on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 01:06 pm:

Yes, May 2-4. The Texas REgion SCCA has planned another moster event. We hope to have both the ITS GTV6 and the IMSA Milano Verde running in ITE. The Milano should be much faster then the GTV6 running ITE/IMSA engine specs. I have been hoping to get to MSR before then, but a business project have prevented me from doing so.

ANDREWG

By Greg Gordon on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 01:37 pm:

Great, If I am not working I will come and watch.

By Dennis on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 12:37 am:

Ok guys,

I have been talking to Ron and he couldn't remember what the spring rates were, allthough he thought the front springs were 100 kg/cm. It is nearly impossible to calculate what it does together with the torsion bars.

I don't have the knowledge to say anything other than the set really completes the car and how extremely well it handles. Talking to Ron made clear that everything in roadholding/suspension is a lot more complex than I thought. I will have to get into that to further maximize my cars and own driving skills.

Sorry Ben, I'll do your measurements tonight.

By Ben on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 06:39 pm:

Dennis, can you measure the spring outside diameter, the wire diameter and the number of coils as well?? If thats asking too much you can tell me to get lost, but it would let me work out what the coil-over spring rate is...

By Dennis on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 12:25 am:

Crap, forgot it again. I think it is easier for me to get it via another way. I won't get under the car untill next week. Did it yesterday and lowered it some more, but forgot to take measurements. I did see some markings on the rear springs, but didn't have a pen to write 'm down.

I won't tell you to get lost. It will be interesting and will give some thought for a good discussion on suspension. Plus: I wanna know too.

By Dorian V on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 01:11 pm:

I'd like to know a little more about how the front coilovers work, I understand that you lower the stock suspension, but how much?, Some of us have a Verde model which is supposed to have even stiffer front bars than the standard model (V6 US models like mine), I'm pretty sure the europe only 75's with 4 cyl engines have even smaller torsion bars. Can you talk a little more about this? Thanks for your time.

By Dennis on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 12:07 am:

The TS's have the same torsions as the european 2.5 and 3.0 same brakes, etc. The V6 kit uses heavier springs in the front due to the additional weight of the engine.

I lowered the front end by two notches. It's a lot but I thought I couldn't get low enough with just one notch. You adjust the height with the coilover. It might be a little too progressive and maybe I'll set it back to one notch.

I hope I've answered your questions.

By Anonymous on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 12:11 pm:

On my 75 Evoluzione torsion bar in front are 25,5 mm, stabilizer rear 26 mm as std.
I have now brougt a complete kit to my Turbo Evoluzione, have been talking a lot with Mr. Ron S. and he have a lot of experience with these cars.
Together with more than 300 bhp, electromotive tec3, tarox 330 mm kit and lot`s more, I hope that my car is getting really fast in and out of corners with this setup..on the track day with the norwegian alfa club.
regards to alfistis..

By Dennis de Rooy on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:21 am:

Hi Anon,

Let me know what you think of the set. It would be great to discuss different set-ups. I've lowered mine again this weekend and it's amazing that everytime you lower it, you can feel you can go faster. I need stickier tires I think, the p7000 aren't quite up to the job.

Ben, I've taken the measurements of the swaybar. I'll mail you. Just leave your mail-adress.

By Dennis de Rooy on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:41 am:

Hi Anon,

Let me know what you think of the set. It would be great to discuss different set-ups. I've lowered mine again this weekend and it's amazing that everytime you lower it, you can feel you can go faster. I need stickier tires I think, the p7000 aren't quite up to the job.

Ben, I've taken the measurements of the swaybar. I'll mail you. Just leave your mail-adress.

By Ben on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:59 pm:

Hi Dennis, thats great, thanks.
You can get my email by clicking on my name...

By Anonymous on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 04:26 pm:

Hello Everybody

Quick question
is it still necessary to use the Torsion bars ?

with the coil over shocks

By Zamani on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 04:43 pm:

With RS racing coilovers and no strut brace. Most likely yes.

By Micke Bergman (Micke) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 10:55 pm:

Zamani's right.

Don't even consider only coil overs without chassis reinforcement and/or roll bar to the shock towers.

By Mike G on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:32 am:

The torsion bar set up is a rather heavy design...what ways would be best to reinforce besides a strut brace if u were to remove the bars?

By Anonymous on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 04:40 am:

i have a strut bar that run across to both sides
in engine bay

would it be ok to run with torsion bars

and would the 100kg springs be enough or would i need to go higer ?

By Anonymous on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 04:42 am:

i meant without tosion bars

By Anonymous on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 08:17 am:

We run a few GTVs with coil over and no torsion bars and without braces,based on the flimsy Zagato principle which works very well.

By nils on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 09:50 am:

Hallo ANON
I would like to import the Zagoto principle and can't find the right parts (coil over,swaybar) The original parts are very expensive I heard. Where can I get it? Can you give me a mail?
Thanks Nils Könekamp

By Nizam on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 08:05 am:

What is a Zagato principle?

TIA, Nizam

By Greg Gordon on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 04:44 pm:

I was wondering that myself!

By Ben on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 05:00 pm:

The SZ ("Zagato") as many know used coilovers on the front with no torsion bars. They put the loads straight into the shock towers with no strut bracing etc. hence the theory being you could do the same to a GTV/GTV6/75.

By Donald Papa (Dp) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 05:46 am:

It's a completely different car though - isn't it?

Hey Greg, thanks for the quick shipment - I couldn't belive the hoses were cut to length AND labled! Wow. Great job.

By kevin on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:05 am:

Dawie has been using coil overs(no torsion bars) on his TT cars(300KW 500nm ) in race conditions with no bracing for many years and we havent seen one failure yet.This racing is more stressfull than track racing as it is what we call "all tar road rallying."I have not done it yet on my GTV's but check out the Zagato.

By Ben on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 03:56 pm:

SZ's were built on Alfa 75 floorpans.
I'm not convinced of the conversion being able to survive without bracing on a 75 as they are built from thinner guage steel. As for a GTV or GTV6, I'd feel comfortable with unmodified for road, but would want to seam-weld the front end for tarmac rallying.

By andrew on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 06:55 am:

Calling dennis de rooy!!

Your suspension set-up works very well from your reports. I have one question - what alignment specs do you run with (Castor/neg.camber & toe in/out).

Also what ride height do you find work the best?

It would be interesting to know what setting work really well with you set-up, and how this affects the feel, as the system can be set for road and trackdays.

Many thanks

Andrew

By andrew on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 12:55 pm:

Calling dennis de rooy!!

Your suspension set-up works very well from your reports. I have one question - what alignment specs do you run with (Castor/neg.camber & toe in/out).

Also what ride height do you find work the best?

It would be interesting to know what setting work really well with you set-up, and how this affects the feel, as the system can be set for road and trackdays.

Many thanks

Andrew

By Dennis de Rooy on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 01:07 am:

Hi Andrew,

I've set ride height to 14,5 cm from ground to front jackpoints and 15,5 from ground to rear.I can't go any lower or I can't get to work, with all those damn speed bumps here in Holland.
Ron Simons has 13 cm all-round on his Ring car. I have the rear a little higher as I like the feel that way.

My camber is set to approx. -2 degrees, caster 3 degrees and toe-in I don't know exactly. It's quite a lot to keep the tires wearing evenly. I haven't done that much testing, but I'm quite happy with the set up.

By bteoh on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 09:47 pm:

Hi Dennis,

Did you have any problems getting the front end lower with your RS coilovers? I have just put them on my GTV6 but have a few problems getting the front end lower. I originally had 15.6 cm with my koni's but find that I can only manage 16.5cm with the coilovers. Do I need to drop the torsion bar lower in order to get the car lower? I thought I could just adjust using the adjustment rings but it doesn't seem to work.
Thanks for any info. BTW, my initial impressions were - WOW!!! What a transformation it makes. Will try to drop the torsions a notch to see if it will solve my problem. Cheers, Brian Teoh

By Zamani on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 10:07 pm:

Brian,

I also had to drop my torsion bars. If not the added rate of the coils will push the car up.

How is the ride quality?

By bteoh on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 11:08 pm:

Zamani,

My initial impressions are very short as I have run into some problems with the shock towers. The ride quality was surprisingly good compared with the yellow koni's that I had. It was firm but not harsh at all. Once I get the plates welded on the towers, I should be able to get a better idea.

By Dennis de Rooy on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 12:04 am:

Brian,

Yes, you have to lower the front in order to adjust the car in height. I dropped my milano one teeth at the front and then adjusted with the coilover.

Do you also have a thicker swaybar?

By Mats on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 01:56 am:

Dennis: Do you actually run toe-IN? not out?

/Mats

By Dennis de Rooy on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 03:24 am:

Lots of toe-in, 1,5 degrees (with -3,5 camber). That's the only way you get even wear on the front tyres. They still wear onevenly at normal street usage but on the track it wears evenly.

It kills tyres, the car does get a bit nervous, but she handles like a go-kart!

By bteoh on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 05:28 am:

Dennis, I had originally lowered the car by 30mm before and got the car to sit about 15.6cm with the yellow koni's but with the coilovers, only managed about 16.2cm. I therefore thought maybe I need to lower the torsion bars more. Just didn't want to remove the lower ball joint as it can be a pain sometimes. Anyway, has anyone welded plates onto their shock towers and what is the best way to do it properly?

By Vince Loftus on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 11:53 am:

Calling Dennis de Rooy, Brian Teoh and anyone else who has fitted the Ron Simons coil over kit.

Dennis, what's the latest on your suspension. Have you fine tuned your adjustments, is the kit on your GTV6 yet. Did you fit the 28mm or 30mm to your GTV6, do the anti roll bar cause problems with the chassis fixing points.

The reason I ask is, I'm considereing the coil over kit for my 1992 3.0 V6 QV 75.

You are one of the first to use it, so will have a better 'long term' test report.
An update report would be nice.

Vince from London.

( not the 'Vince' parts man of other posted reports from the classifieds)

By Zamani on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 05:20 pm:

Vince,

There is another guy from the US who has installed the RSR suspension kit on his 75. Try to look for it on alfabb.com . He likes it. Firm but not harsh. Great handling.

By bteoh on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 07:33 am:

Hi Vince,

I have the coilovers on my GTV6 and also on my 75 Twin Spark. The GTV6 was first to receive it and the improvements were substantial. The GTV6 previously had yellow konis, uprated sway bars and poly castor bushes. I must say the initial impressions with the coilovers were fantastic. Turn in was much sharper and the ride was not as firm as I thought. However, the front fitment took me a lot longer than I anticipated and clearance was tight in the GTV6. I only just fitted the suspension to the 75 and was amazed at how much simpler it was. I always thought the 75 and GTV6 were identical but not in my case (Rears were identical but not the front). Understeer is not as evident as before and grip through corners much better. I haven't had much time to fine tune the suspension and will be changing the dedion and watts linkage bushes in the GTV6 soon. I am sure playing around with camber and toe in will give me some further improvement. So my limited experience has been very positive so far. Will let you know how things develop later. Cheers, Brian Teoh

By Daniel Bernauer on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 06:06 pm:

Zamani, have you installed your AVO coil overs yet? I am looking to do just that but go all the way and discard the torsion bars so I can wieight balance my car for the track. I am also researching a rear set up so I have a compete system front and back. After seeing many photos of race GTV6's from Europe with coil overs and no torsion bars I am positive that some welding on the front shock towers and fabricating a strut brace of some type will add enough strength.

I think I read some where that you were going to Willow Springs, are you in the LA area, I am in Burbank, I would love to see your coil overs in person. If you are having a shop fabricate the brackets maybe we could get a couple sets at the same time and lower the price? Also where did you buy the AVO's and what are the part numbers. I just got a Demon Tweeks catalogue and the prices are great!

Thanks
Daniel
'86 GTV6

By barry on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 05:05 am:

Dennis,any further feedback on the different sway bars yet?

Any news on your car?

Im itching to do my Giulietta but am still busy with Kevins Haltech on the gta.

\barry

By barry on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 11:55 am:

Dennis,hello,dennis.

By Dennis de Rooy on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 12:26 am:

Hey Barry,

I'm sorry. I've been rather busy, also with the car. The GTV6 is tucked away for the winter and now I'm driving the 75 TS with the RS set. I'll never fit the set to the GTV unless I have the money to buy a second set or if I crash the 75.

The 75 will see more track, so the set comes in handy there. The 75 needs a new gearbox. I Was drifting when the bolts of one of the halfshafts came off and knocked the caliper from the box. Unfortunately it destroyed the gearboxcasing.

About swaybars. The 28mm is a huge improvement to stock, but I'll never fit it again to the 75. I like the 30 mm a lot more. The car is just more direct and firm. It felt a bit better on the road, but really surprised me on Zandvoort last summer.

Just a couple of months and the Nordschleife will open again. Will post some test rapports then....

By barry on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 12:03 pm:

D,thanks.I finnished my upper arms today and will probably fit the whole lot this weekend.
Mmmm,30mm bar you say?
I got rid of those years ago not thinking i would one day use them again.
I will have to make up some again.

I got some pics from down under of lower arms.
Check it out ,not bad,will let you know how it works out.

/barry

low.contr.arm
lowr.contr.arm1

By Ben on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 02:12 pm:

That upper one looks like its using a 105 series Ball joint?

By Dennis on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 12:04 am:

Hey Barry,

I just realized that someone else has used a 32 mm hollow bar. It has the same stiffness as the 30 mm but is alot lighter. Why did you throw out the 30 mm's?

Can you show us more pics of that car?

By barry on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 10:51 am:

Ben,i also tought it was 105.Makes sense to use it.Looked at a VW lower adj.joint today.
Will also work and it has a parrallel shaft with a bolt indent.

Dennis,This was in the 80,s when we all raced Alfas in group 1.We had a pile of genuine Autodelta stuff as well as locally made stuff such as swaybars.

After Alfa abandoned us in 85,we got rid of everything.

If only,huh?
I dont have any more pics but will ask Patrick in Ozz if he can send me more.
If he does i will post.

Have you done anything about your frnt. roll center? If so ,what and by what means?
Im busy with mine at the moment.

Has anyone removed the center Watts link "pin" mounting on a de dion?
I have a new loose "pin" i want to weld in upside down for the rear roll center.I noticed that it is a steel forging.
Matts,maybe you have tried something??

Dennis,ill post a pic or two regarding this and the frnt.upright as modded for 2 callipers and bumpsteer.

Gotto take pics quick.

/barry

By barry on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:19 am:

upper contr.arm mod for coilover
watts link to de dion mount
mod upright

By barry on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:29 am:

Mike,Tom,here,s a classic!
glenwood car

By barry on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:33 am:

Whuuupss,wrong discussion,sorry!

By Maurizio on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 02:11 am:

Barry,

I'm a bit confused with the upper arm mod. Shouldn't you want to open the arm at the front side to allow for max castor?

PS I'm the 32mm roll bar man Dennis refers to. It's about 8% stiffer as the 30 mm bar and ~ 6.5 kg but with more budget it can be made much lighter ;)

Saluti

By Maurizio on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 02:14 am:

Eeeeuh,

I meant both like the right side picture.

Saluti

By Dennis on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 03:39 am:

Ah, this is becoming a rather cosy club.... :)

I'm not an engineer nor have I read a book about bump steer and roll centre. I can understand why you want to raise the roll centre (to get it closer to CG), but I don't get bump steer.

I have looked at pics from the IMSA in the Museo Storico and they actually raised the pin on that particular car. This car was in the Giro d'Italia so they had to drive around on public roads. I'll try to find a pic.

You'll find some pics in this gallery:

http://www.alfapower.nu/gallery/Evoluzione?page=2

I don't think it's in the Museo anymore, but I don't know what it is doing there. MATS!!!!

By Mats on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 06:11 am:

WHAT!!!???s-link...

;)

Those pics are from last summer I think, I got a bunch more from my trip there, they were on my site (www.alfa75turbo.com) before it went offline.
Why wouldn't it be in the museum? Remember that it's a rally car (Yes, co-driver seat and the lot) so maybe they have optimized it for something different then circuit racing.

By Dennis on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 06:52 am:

Hi Mats,

I know you have something to do with this site ;)

This car isn't a real rally car, but it was used in the GIRO. This is not a real Rally but I believe more like a tour between circuits, but you have to drive the car to it.

The pictures are taken on a hoist, not in the museo. There's an evo somewhere in the back, but also a Mercedes, a couple of BMW bikes and a renault. It doesn't make sense.... Where is this car?

By barry on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 09:39 am:

M,yes,but if you check the 2 arm carefully,you will note that they are both left sides(or right sides-cant remember now)
I had two new ones that i decided to use,but from the same side.I will simply drill a hole for the r/rod to bolt up on the "wrong" one.1 lhs &1 rhs!

D,Over the years of lowering the 116 we have seen some serious bump steer.As a matter of interest,have you checked for bump steer on your car since you lowered it from stock?

On the subject,our 156 gta racer from last season showed no bump steer at all .We lowered this car by 180mm at the frnt. end.

By Mats on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 03:30 pm:

Dennis: Actually I'm an admin on the site but thise pictures were taken by a Norwegian on vacation so I have nothing to do with that.
I can ask hom a little about them though.

Just one thing, why are so many of you obsessed with looking at old cars and trying to find solutions and apply them on your cars?
These cars are _old_ and the science of chassis has really gone forward since then.
For instance, is it always favourable to have zero bumpsteer? why? :)
Do you use the same type of tyres as they did in those days? probably not so why use the same suspension setup?

/Mats

By Nizam on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 05:40 pm:

er, maybe because we cannot have the newer cars (and newer technologies Alfa-wise). Of course, I'm speaking from the USA.

There is an eBay auction for a ETCC (or was it DTM) Alfa 155 but he wanted to start the bidding at over USD$150,000. Ouch.

Until then, I guess I'll continue obsessing over my old 75 and keep trying to make it keep up with the newer, younger crowd. Heh heh.

By maurizio on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 02:47 am:

Mats,
we simply love those old things and we love to modify :) keeps you off the street.

Bar, OK I see....

By Mats on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 03:29 pm:

Hell, I'm doing that myself! :)

The thing is that maybe with todays knowledge and tyres they would have done the chassis in a entierly different way...

There is a BTCC 155 '94 in my garage, 'slightly' damaged front end but otherwise complete, any takers? :)

ooh, need milk, not good welding galvanized steel for 12 hours straight... :|

/Mats

By chelo on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 06:06 pm:

that etcc car was for sale over 6 months ago for $85,000. This guy wants to double his money

By Mark Denovich on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 07:45 am:

Zinc Fever is no fun. I wouldn't make a habit of that Mats.

By Nizam on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 05:55 am:

Hey Mats, do you have pics of your BTCC 155?

By JimGreek on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 08:22 am:

Hello guys,
I just got back from HEAVEN !!! Well,that's the only word that comes to mind after spending 2 days at the Nurburgring Nordschleife, DRIVING Ron Simons' 75 Twin Sparks, taking his race driving course,along with 10 other members from the Greek AR Club. 21km of roller-coaster track,side by side with all kinds of automotive machinery and superbikes,from humble Golfs to Vipers and GT3's.His cars are equipped with his special suspension with 28 or 30mm front sway bars and front adjustable coilovers and adjustable rear springs.For those of us who have played a long time with transaxle suspensions, the handling of the cars was a revelation!! Fantastic is a good everyday word,a perfect description.My car, was shod with amazing Pirelli P Zero C tires...Alfa made me proud again of driving its cars!The cars retained the stock torsion bars.The ride was appropriate for everyday standards and body roll and understeer is now something that only happens to others!Unbelievable,the whole experience was just that.I can only dream of what a modified 3.0 would do in that track with this suspension!I couldn't find fault with this setup! Dennis posted some pics of the stuff in this thread,some time ago(top posting).
I wish you guys could meet Ron.The guy is a race driver and machanic(a rare virtue).To top everything off,and REALLY SEE what the 75 can do and how it can beat the shit out of...Lotus,M3 and Porsche jewels,Ron will demo drive you for a full 21km lap.You've all heard of the Flying Dutchman,well,now you can meet him in person!! (Ron is Dutch,based in Eindhoven,but he runs the 75 Experience school in the famous track, commuting back and forth twice a week).People with Ron's personality,are a credit to motorsport.
For me,the suspension thing was a real eye-opener,as I was always sceptical about coilovers in these cars.If,however,the entire system is analysed in engineering terms,it all works out very well,provided the torsion bars are retained.I know now that some of you guys have been secretly ordering Ron's stuff...don't worry,your secret is safe with me,hahah!
Nordschleife regards,
Jim K.

By Greg Gordon on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 10:46 am:

Jim, It's great you had such a good time, I wish I could get over there and do that. I am glad to hear about the success of the coil over set since my web site describes that as the best way to extract ulitimate performance form the transaxle cars. I like that Ron's set up retains the torsion bars because that should minimize the need for chassis reinforcing. It does sound well engineered.

Greg Gordon www.oldebottles.com

By JimGreek on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 12:05 pm:

Greg,
Words can't even come close to the experience of driving balls-out in this legendary track!I will do my best to urge all serious Alfa-nuts to live it through,its just something a car freak HAS to do!The Norwegian AR club is there today,some of them have been there 7 times!For those who don't know,this stopped being a F1 track in 1976,after Nicki Lauda's accident,but it is used for all other racing,including Endurance,24 Hours,DTM etc.
Jim K.

By Zamani on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 12:32 pm:

Jim,

How many laps did you do? Of those laps, how many were with and without instructors? Did you have to wear a helmet? I hope you did :).

I plan to go to Europe next year to join Ron's class. Hope I have enough money to do it then.

By gtv11636 on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 01:45 pm:

how much money we'r tallking about ?

By Michael Harris (Admin) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 06:35 pm:

Ron should be shipping my kit out to me soon :)
Can't wait!

By (Micke) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 11:51 pm:

OH SHIT!!!

Jim, you should have told us beforehand as I probably saw you on the entrance parking lot. We were there with Maurizio and logged his car for a lap.

It really would have been nice to meet face to face too.

PS! Maurizio's 75TS really corners like a dream. 1.27 G in Kallenhard, 1.30 G Wehrseifen and over 1.5 G in the banked caroussel.

By Dennis de Rooy on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 11:57 pm:

Good to hear you had such an excellent time, Jim! I wouldn't expect anything else as I have done it too, it's an absolute BLAST. 21 km of the most demanding track and a 10 minute adrenaline rush, the best combination ever.

I've read you encountered quite a few track-closings, hope you had enough time to do the laps. You can do about twelve a day, if you let yourself and the car have some rest.

I wish I had the time to go more often, it has been WAY too long.

By A. de Haan on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 12:58 am:

For you enthusiasts;
You can download a video of a lap with Ron's GTV6 around The Ring here (64Mb!):
http://www.8200rpm.com/Video_Section/RS-Racing-GTV6.wmv

Greetings,
Arnoud.

By Dennis de Rooy on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 01:17 am:

Micke, what do you think about the toyo's on Maurizio's car?

By Maurizio on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 02:36 am:

Hey guys,

Ron started it...
The course did the harm to me last year and I ended up with a stripping TS and a lot of fiddling with the suspension. Which is also a coil over setup like Ron's and Micke's gtv.

@Dennis the toyo's are really nice.

Saluti

By (Micke) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 08:21 am:

Maurizio said it:
Damn sticky little bastards them Toyos.

Really tiny (185/55R14) and don't look like much but 1.3 G leaves out the BS.
Even the wear seemed to be quite moderate considering the abuse they received.

By JimGreek on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 09:01 am:

-Damn Micke!Didn't you see a whole bunch of 75's going on and off the track all Sunday long?
-gtv11636, the kit goes for 1295euros, but if you ever DRIVE one of Ron's cars,you won't ask what it costs,as there's nothing you can compare it to!
-Zamani,I think I drove more than 8 or 9 laps,as the track was closed twice for...debris cleanup (3 superbikes and an STI Subaru all falling in love with the guardrails!).Initially, Ron leads the convoy,gradually increasing the pace,calling out instructions over the 2-way radio.You listen to him and listen good,as he tells you where to turn-in where to brake hard and also watches for traffic coming up from behind!After you get to learn(some)your way around(and this takes quite a few laps)if Ron thinks you're good enough, he'll let you drive on your own,or co-drive with you with excellent pointers! Whatever you do, make sure your ears don't fall off,because your smile will be THAT wide when you get out of the car!! YES,you wear a helmet.When the time comes Z for you to go there,let me know,as we are already talking about doing it again,soon!!
-Dennis,if I lived in Holland like you,I'd be on the track every other weekend!Shame on you, hah!
I think I should get a job at Ron's shop next to the track,building 3.0 engines!
-Make sure you all watch the video!(see above posting by Arnoud!)
Regards to all !
Jim K.

By Mats on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 12:58 pm:

I'm actually thinking about spending my entire vacation at the Ring... :)

So if you see a black 75 with OZ Superturismos, move over. :D

/Mats

By fred roger johansen on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:38 pm:

HI JIMGREEK!

Is it really You? If so, we had a great time at the resturant, the greek and the norwegian participants on the 75Exp......
The day after, the norwegian participants really had a great trackday with Ron.

I have been there 3 times in less than a year, and I`ll be back in about 7 weeks.............

This 75Experience is just perfect. so is also the setup Ron have made.......

Have you been on my site Jim? www.alfafred.com and take a look at my project....

Regards! also to the other participants from greece!

alfafred
norway

By Maurizio on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:40 pm:

@Jim, almost every weekend Ron is driving with a group.
Worst part, during one closure Ron (and some of you drove by) and said hi in the parking lot.

@Mats, give us a notice and I will be there.
I 've to make my year ticket word it's money :)
Ps you have to go really sideways to show me your OZ Superturismos in the rear view mirror.....

Saluti

By (Micke) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:49 pm:

Soon we'll need a list who's going when to be able to meet live for a change. Nice that people from "all around the world" meet in this small village in Germany ;-)

Micke

PS! I'll be there next weekend 8-9.5 , maybe 15-16.5 , 20-22.5 and 10-13.6 for THE EVENT 24 hours of green Hell of course.

By Dennis de Rooy on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:30 am:

Sure Jim, go ahead, rub it in :(

By Maurizio on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:43 am:

Jim, some dutch guys made a low res video last weekend along the track.
http://www.ring205.tk ~25mb see red link in the middle.
There are several 75experience cars passing by. Not my 75 :(

Saluti

By Mats on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 01:18 am:

Maurizio: lol, I was thinking in the car park but I see your point. I'll make a mirrored sign on my intercooler instead then... :D

Micke: :) Great! I'm thinking about the 24H too. I sure want to see "Team Schwedenkreuz" in at least one VLN race too.

How about a Nurburgring thread? :)

/Mats

By (Micke) on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 04:50 am:

Mats,

let me know whenever you are on your way. You have to pass max a couple of km from my house going to the ring as well.

By Mats on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 06:25 am:

Will do!
But for now it's just empty talk I'm afraid, I'm currently building a new engine for the 75T, compete in the local Alfaclub racing series and fixing up my Delta Integrale...
I don't have any trouble at all spending all my money, believe me. :-/

But the 24H would be very nice. :)

/Mats

By JimGreek on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 07:42 am:

Hi Fred and everybody else !!
How can we all be together and not know each other!! Well, here it is !!:We will all plan for a weekend to DRIVE at the RING !!Everyone please pick your available dates so we can see where we coincide! What do you all think? I know a lot of us can't bring our cars, but thank God for Ron!!
I really think we'can have a great time!
I suggest that we plan for somewhere in the next four months, if that's all right with you guys.
Best regards,
Jim K.

By JimGreek on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 09:29 am:

Fred, that's a great site you have!
I have very few pictures in the gallery.Check out Alfapower.new/gallery/album416.I will also email you some pics of my '87 Turbo.
You are very fortunate to go to the 'Ring 3 times a year!I think I should make a habit of it too!
Best regards,
Jim K.

By Barry on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:45 pm:

Guys,Let me know when your`e planning the get together.Ill see if i can represent South Africa.

Barry

By Zamani on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 02:02 pm:

For me, I can't go this year. I'm thinking of going next year. I'll see if I can get Larry Dickman, my brother Nizam, and others to come along as well. One year's planning is the minimum since for us in the US, the flight alone is going to cost quite a bit of money.

Jim,

For the cost of the "kit" do you mean for the whole trip or just the 75 Experience part? E1295 does sound like quite a lot, if it was only for the course excluding hotel, flight etc.

On RSracing's site, it mentions:

Cost
Euro 375 ex vat per person
Minimum
12 persons

This is with Ron's 75. Not sure how many laps.

By bteoh on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 09:10 pm:

Zamani, I think the E1295 is for the suspension kit only, which includes four dampers and six coils and 2 rear adjusters. I have them on my 75 Twin Spark and GTV6 and they are fantastic. Just have to get the settings fine tuned now....

I'd love to do the driving experience but the trip from Australia is also quite costly. Where there's a will, there's a way :-)

Brian Teoh
Perth

By Mats on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:05 am:

I wonder if you can bring your own steering wheel, there is no way in hell I can drive fast with a standard seat/steering wheel in a 75. :/
375 Euro sounds very reasonable for a course INCLUDING car, tires, fuel and track admission and so on... :D
Only thing I don't like is that you are in the car in pairs, that means I have to sit next to someone with possibly NO knowledge of trackdriving trying to be fast on the Ring... :o
I thimk there are something like three gravel traps on the whole circuit.

Lets see now,
-22/5, 20/6, 31/7 and 4/9 I'm busy racing. :)
-Some time during August I'm going to Italy, this is somewhat flexible.
-12/7 -> 8/8 I'm pretty free... :) (except for the weekend 30/7-1/8)

Friday 16/7 and 23/7 the track seems to be booked.
http://www.nuerburgring.de/download/TF2004.pdf


/Mats

By Mats on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:12 am:

Hmm, I was a bit quick...
http://members.chello.nl/~r_simons/kalender_eng.html

Seems like 18-19/7 and 25-26/7 are my dates...
But then again, weekends are mostly free so there should be no problems going whnever during the summer, except for the dates where I'm racing. ;)

By JimGreek on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 07:25 am:

Hi Zamani,
1295euros is the cost of the suspension.The only additional thing that you could possibly need, is the 28 or 30mm anti sway bar.I guarantee you will kick yourself for not putting the stuff on the car sooner,after you drive Ron's TS's in the 'Ring!
The course costs 375euros wo tax,and you get to drive until (in Ron's own words) you drop dead! Its no mean feat driving fast in an unknown track,let alone one with 172 turns!How many do you think you'll remember after 4,5 or 6 laps? Remember, a lap is 21km!!We drove from 8am to 8pm and I can tell you we were happy and full!!
As for the total cost,figure on about 650euros+ your flight.650 includes course,hotel,meals,car-rental from Duesseldorf airport.It IS worth it.
Mats,most of Ron's 75's have race seats,harness and small steering wheels,roll cage,his EXCELLENT suspension and...no ashtrays!
If you travel there with a well chosen friend as a partner(as we did from the Greek club),you won't have to worry about sitting next to a dummy!
Regards to all,
Jim K.

By Mats on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 08:43 am:

Might be a problem then, no-one wants to go with me... ;)
Small SWs? I want a regular size (350mm) but deep-dish. Long legs you know. Anyway, I guess thats what you mean.

I'll do some hundred laps in GPL before I go, should make me able to find my way around the course.
Watching film clips is good too, if you can find a good clip with a good driver.

/Mats

By Julian on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 04:55 pm:

You guys are exciting me no-end...

I want to be a Nordschleife-hand too.... I also want Ron's Coilover kit... but converting it to AUD= $$$$ that I simply dont have now

Soon (ish).... HOPEFULLY!

By gtv11636 on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 01:40 pm:

Can anyone tell from experience wich kit is the best ? Beninca's or Ron Simon's kit ?

By joey on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 10:15 pm:

thats a good question i want answered myself, even restoring stock suspension with oem parts aint cheap...

i have no idea but i recall the beninca package cost around that mark, which isn't too bad i guess... i think it was nizam that almost nutted himself with the beninca package.. it would be great to get a side by side trial, but that frikken unliekly since one is made in OZ and the other in the netherlands, lol !

guess we'll have to con some aussie guy into biting, since they are a complete package, should be able to get in each car and have a squirt !

even tho jules, its just under AUD2200, u would have to figure a bit for the shipping/ins eh? cant be that light ! tho could be worse (torsion bars!)

cheers

By gtv11636 on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 07:21 pm:

where are Nizam and Zamani ? i think maybe they can answer from experience

By Nizam on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 08:21 pm:

Heh - I was biting my tongue (fingers?) on this one.

I didn't get a chance to drive a certain Alfa 75 here that has been outfitted with RSRacing's coilovers so I really cannot 'compare and contrast' between Beninca's setup (which is on my car) and the RSRacing setup.

Lemme see if I can dig up the guy's number and arrange for a quick swap. Then, both he and I can write what WE thought of either setup.

You know it's going to be subjective.

By joey on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 11:03 pm:

woohoo, sounds good nizam ! i'm not only interested in which out and out handles better on a track or corner, but things like how comfortable the ride is, and how well they fare on city streets is gunna be helpful for most of us... as well of course pricing ..

cheers !

By Barry on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 04:33 am:

Joey,Comfortable ride???Im starting to doubt how hard core you guys are!Although i must admit that at my age i also now and again take the beemer rather than the Alfa.No fun though!!

Barry

By joey on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 09:11 am:

barry, speaking for myself, i'm not at all 'hardcore'.

true enough, i'm a thinking of retiring at the ripe age of 22.

lol, seriously, i didnt mean a lexus on airbag suspension, but instead, if out and out handling performance is very close, splitting them on how comfortable (or least harsh) they are could help some of us, obviously they are performance orientated.

By Mats on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 02:00 pm:

Sound like the Bilstein vs. Koni discussion all over again...

With Bilsteins I can't drive over 4" edges without my giant soda spilling over, nag, nag, bitch, bitch... ;) :D

/Mats

By joey on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 07:58 pm:

mats, stop being such a swedish meatball.

By Julian on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 10:41 pm:

I think Paul Kretzas got the RS kit into his GT.... I havent felt it yet. Paul!?

You there? I wanna ride again please!

By Mats on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:04 am:

The irony isn't clear even with smilies?

What I meant to say is: It sounds like the Bilstein vs. Koni discussion where people think very differently because they are looking for different results/effects.

In other words, which suspension package is the best is VERY dependent upon what you are looking for.

/Swedish Meatball

By joey on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:07 am:

oh god jules, a bit of censorship please.. that could sound real bad out of context !

"i havent felt it yet, paul."

"i wanna ride again please."

get a room god damn it, then tell us how stiff it is !

mats, i got ya man, we're on the same page ! thats why i asked to consider which is least harsh on roads b/c most people would want reports on just how hard it corners on a track etc... my incontinent ass just can take the abuse anymore ;)

cheers !

ps: barry is being a prick. instead, how's about u round me up a few tip-top swedish girls, stick em into the back seat of your 155 racer and ship it over here.

pps: dont forget to punch in some air-holes, its just no fun when they dont fight back.

By Mats on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:45 am:

What? do you really think I have some to spare? I want them all for myself. :P

155 Racecar? Where did that come from? A friend had one but it's gone now, sold.

Actually I think YOU ar the A-hole, Barry is a good guy.. :D

With love from the smörgåsbord
/Mats

By Barry on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:10 am:

Joey,Joey,Joey,"My incontenant ass just cant take the abuse anymore"?????????And you say Jules must get a room????

Visit S.A. mate and we will taste all the delicasies S.A. can dish up.Especially in the car and racing frat.

No prob on the Swedish girls either!!

Barry

By JimGreek on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 08:49 am:

Hi again guys,
I just installed Ron Simons' suspension on the 3,0 a couple of days ago.I had a few guys from the Club briefly drive the car,as I didn't want to rely only on my (subjective?)evaluation.After they drove the car,they all sang 'holy shit' together,hahah! The guys loved it,even if the roads around the club aren't so smooth.I thought it would really have a harsh ride,but thankfully I was wrong.I would say that ride quality is comparable to the Bilsteins replaced,only firmer.I do not plan to change the height of the car,but I adjusted the front coilovers in a way that the additional springs come into play JUST after the car begins to lean!Therefore,I still use the existing 27,3mm torsion bars most of the time.AllI have to do now, is ask Ron for the rear shocks,next time I see him.I can't wait to test the setup in the track,one of the coming weekends!I will try posting again in this space again.If AGAIN I don't succeed (I heard you laugh!),see the nugallery416.I also posted pics of the new big-brake stuff there.
Jim K.
RSRacing setup

By JimGreek on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 08:56 am:

Holy Banana! I don't believe this,I finally posted here!Well then,here's some more!.
RSR1
RSR2
RSR3

By Greg Gordon on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 02:04 pm:

That looks great. Any problems adjusting Castor with those coil overs passing through the upper links?

By Michael Harris (Admin) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 08:47 pm:

Hi Greg:

I'm installing my RS Racing set currently. Yes, the castor adjustment range is determined/limited by the clearance between the coil-overs and the upper a-arm. I had to increase the castor as compared with how it had been set to centre the coil over spring in the upper a-arm. Ron recons I should end up with 4.5 to 5 degrees caster. He also said that I should use 4 mm toe-in and about 3 degrees of camber which Iíll go with. Hope to have it on the road soon!

Cheers,
Michael

By JimGreek on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 09:52 pm:

Hi Greg,
No problem at all with castor.As a matter of fact, changing it to center the coilover,resulted in 4,5* as Ron said.I also set camber to 2,5* and toe-in at 3mm total.These are not very radical settings,as it is a road car.
Regards,
Jim K.

By Mats on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 06:49 am:

3mm toe-in??

/Mats

By Greg Gordon on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 07:36 am:

Michael, Jim, I am glad to hear the Castor works out. I thought it would but I couldn't tell looking at it. That's a lot of negative camber and toe in you guys are running. It seems to me that will greatly accelertate tire wear on a street car. Wouldn't it be just as effective to set zero toe in and say 1 degree of negative camber and then drop in a predetermined number of shims to bump it up to -2 or -3 for track days.

By JimGreek on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 01:03 pm:

Well Greg,
Its not as bad as it sounds,as the toe-in offsets in part the neg.camber.Íts not practical to change ride heights for track days,unless you REALLY want to mess with this kind of work.I'm no fan of this,I've set ride height to 160mm front and 170mm rear,not too low or too high.This is an everyday(well,almost)car,used for about 120miles of track per month.
Jim K.

By Michael Harris (Admin) on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 02:42 pm:

I might go with slightly more conservative settings for toe and camber since my car is also dual-duty. You could add/subtract shims to go from road to track settings, but when you change camber, this also affects toe so at a minimum, both these would need to be changed (requiring a visit to an alignment shop).

Jim, I see you have set your car up to be as high as the rear shocks allow - same as mine is currently set. With this setting, did you need to increase the length of the rear shock rod? I found that the shocks which Ron supplied were a little short - I was concerned that they would reach maximum extension on rebound so I needed to make some short adapter pieces to lengthen the rod as much as possible (in other words, to make sure that the length of the shock rod sticking out of the mounting hole inside the car was as short as possible).
Kinda hard to describe :)

Cheers,
Michael

By Guy Gove on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 06:03 am:

Hello Michael

I see in your article you mention 150kg and 160kg springs. Is their spring rate 150kg per mm and 160kg/mm?

Thanks
Guy

By JimGreek on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 07:08 am:

Must be something wrong with the spring rates as mentioned.My 75 battleship,all 1380kg of it(2830 lbs),is very happy with 50kg springs,which translates to 285 lbs/inch.
Hah! Michael,I haven't put the rear shocks on yet,but I think I will lower the car another cm at the most,but it fouls the driveway in my garage!!How's that for...engineering criteria??
I think a very good height is 15cm front,16 rear, under the jack points.
Hahah! I may have to shave off some concrete after all-I hate this kind of scientific work!
I'm sure that the shocks can be lengthened, people do it all the time,there are no ill-effects to it.
Jim K.

By Michael Harris (Admin) on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 12:05 pm:

Guys:
Sorry, I meant 50 and 60 Kg springs :)
I started with the 60 Kg springs but it will be very easy to switch to the lighter ones if necessary.

Cheers,
Michael

By JimGreek on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 08:02 am:

Hello Gentlemen,
I'm so damn happy I gotta tell you about this!
I just got my tickets today and on Oct 8, I'm flying to the 'Ring again !!!!Back to the holy ground, racing Paradise!!We'll be driving all day Sunday, Oct.10 !!Any of you guys nearby?
It'll be great to see Ron Simons again,we kept tabs on each other over the phone since my first visit there in May.I've asked Ron to make arrangements for perfect driving weather-cool,overcast,NO RAIN,lots of fries and hot dogs!! If God owns an Alfa (With Ron's suspension preferably,heheh!)he'll oblige!
Regards,
Jim K.

By (Micke) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 12:37 pm:

At least you have the sense to inform about it this time ;-) Pretty stupid feeling after realizing earlier this year that we were there at the same time without meeting.

I hope to be there from friday evening (8.10) until Sunday. If everything works out I'll do the 3.5 hour race on Saturday. I let you know how it will be.

BTW, which hotel do you stay in?

By Mats on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 12:54 am:

I hate you. :( ;)

I'm going to Kinnekulle instead tomorrow and in the beginning of Oct, Anderstorp in the middle of Oct. ;)

Still wanna go to the Ring though, I hate you!

:D

/Mats

By Maurizio on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 01:02 am:

Probably will be there too on the 10th.
Just have to place the refurbished TS head back on this weekend and then I'm ready to go :-)

Havenít been there over 2 months and that is not good for my driving style during the daily commuting ÖÖ.

@Micke, what are you driving, TT or Boxter?

Saluti,
Maurizio

By (Micke) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 04:59 am:

Prolly TT if they get it running OK.

By Fernando on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 05:13 am:

You lucky bastard Jim! Right now my brother and I can only dream about doing a track day at the Nurburgring in our GTV's.Is the ban on in car camera's still applicable ? If not you must try and bring us some great footage or failing that some photo's PLEASE.

By Mats on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 05:52 am:

Yep, still banned, but everybody seems to use bulletcams anyway... :)
Or set up the cam after the cones.

By Dennis de Rooy on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 06:13 am:

Might be a good idea to go. Let's see if I can make some time on sunday. I would love to meet some of you guys. I guess, I'll have to get the TS ready :)

By JimGreek on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 07:46 am:

Ok then gang,get off your behinds and set this up!I'll be staying at the Hans Marvin Guesthouse, not 100 meters from Ron's garage. Saturday morning I'll probably modify a couple of Ron's TS LSD's for 47% and properly adjust them.
It will be great if any of us can meet there. C'mon Mats,there's no such thing as 'can't'.
Hey Fernando,instead of getting wet dreams about the Ring,beg,borrow or steal what you need and come over!You will NEVER regret it,and that goes for EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Be a Ring junkie, Ron is making it easy!!!
Regards,
Jim K.

By Mats on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 03:41 pm:

Damn, I'm beat.
drove the GTV approx. 2 hours on the track today, captured 1:20 on tape. :)
Managed to spin on the straight, I guess there's a first time for everything right? hehe.

Jim, I'd love to come but I just don't have the money right now. :(

But my birthday is Oct 7... (wink, wink) :D

/Mats

By JimGreek on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 08:37 am:

Ok Mats,
Since its your birthday,here's what I propose: Go all out and make a big present to yourself-the cost of the Ring trip!If you don't do it,how will you live everafter, in shame???? Hah!
Jim K.

By Zamani on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 08:44 am:

A few of us from California and Washington are planning to make a trip to the ring sometime next year money permitting. To join Ron's school. The hope is of course to meet some of you guys there as well. Hopefully I will have the means (money) to do so next year.

By JimGreek on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 01:25 pm:

Well,you can probably count me in,if that will bring the total number to 12,which is Ron's aim for a full class.Plan for end of May to make sure your chances for dry weather are best!

By Mats on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 03:28 am:

Actually I'm thinking of saving up to a Scuderia Hanseat course next spring.
Probably will have just enough money for a RS-Racing course in the spring though, the Hanseat course is very costly. :/

See you spring -05?

/M

By JimGreek on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 09:10 am:

Yo! Whats this Hans eat thing??
Jim K.

By Mats on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:23 am:

Scuderia Hanseat has a VERY high quality Ring-driving course. They rent the entire track and shut it down then you practise driving the Ring in sectors and you are given notes on what you do right and wrong and how to correct your problems.
At the end of the course there is a test and you are ranked on how well you drive the track.
I think they use an absoulte point system so you can compare points with other drivers, bragging rights at the pub and such. :D

But as the entire Ring is rented and shut down for the course it is "quite" expensive.

Would love to go though.
/Mats

By JimGreek on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:16 am:

Sounds great,but I'd rather see all kinds of cars around me I personally don't like the track to myself.I want faster cars to pass me as I want to pass others,I think it adds to the excitement of the day.As far as bragging rights go,I'll leave that for when we come out of the local...cathouse,Hahah!!
Jim K.

By Mats on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 02:19 am:

I was browsing the RSR site and noticed that they also have track-experience days on Spa Francorchamps!! :D

So, when are we going? ;)

/Mats

By JimGreek on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 06:55 am:

Hi guys,
Last call for the Ring! Are any of you going to be there this weekend or what???? Like I said, I'll be in Ron's shop on Saturday and at the track on Sunday ALL DAY heheh!!!
Any takers??
Jim K.

By Peter Walgemoed on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 06:05 pm:

Hi Jim

I just managed to arrange a trainingsession with 3 or perhaps 4 Dutch Alfa friends with Ron on Sunday. We'll arrive at Ron's hotel saturday late afternoon. Hope to meet you there for a beer! I really look for to the course. Never done anything like this before and shure need the practice for my 1.8 turbo GTV!

Best regards,

Peter

Ps. Because of your enthousiastiac mail I had to arrange the course for coming weekend to meet you and others of the forum!

By (Micke) on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 12:09 am:

YES!
I'll be there some time Friday. Saturday you find me in the paddocks (box 1 I think) and on the track of course.
Where are Ron's shop and hotel?

PS! I'll be there the incoming week too if someone's still around.

By JimGreek on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 07:14 am:

Micke, it will be a shame to be there and not meet! Ron's shop is in Dottingen,very near the track, a very small village.You've GOT to come there!
Jim K.

By (Micke) on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 08:13 am:

Found it. OK, I'll come around.

By Zamani on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 02:42 pm:

Don't forget to take lotsa photos. And if possible some videos. Mats should be able to host them :)

By Maurizio on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:27 am:

I won't make it. Engine is still not satisfying. Maybe going to rebuild the bottom end of the TS also first, so no ring for me this year.

By JimGreek on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 07:49 am:

HELLOOOOO guys!!
Back from the 'Ring and Ron's company! What can I say? If I was single I'd find a job and move there! The most important parameter-weather-was perfect!Those Internet predictions for 'possible rain' were total bull! All I can do now is plan for the next time!Should be around early May'05. I met Micke this time and some Dutch guys who were overjoyed with the whole scene!
Ron's 75 stable is growing and now he also has a 3liter.It wasn't ready in time though and we didn't try it out. I did 3 LSD's while there and I'll wait for Ron's impressions.
Gear-up guys,there's plenty of time till next spring when the weather clears again.If we think about it we can all make it there,what the hell, Ron has about 17 cars available!!
Jim K.

By Mats on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 01:13 pm:

You did LSD three times? :o

;)

Damn I wanna go too. :|

/Mats

By (Micke) on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 01:13 pm:

Howdy,

just arrived from THE Ring myself. Really enjoyed meeting Jim and Ron live.
Not trying to be boring but I want to return to the real subject of this thread.
I did 51 laps around the ring this week with three different cars. I must say that Ron's 75 was by far the best handling of them all (including the Audi TT racing car). Of course the 75 TS was slower as power/weight was not even close. The 75 also run on street tires vs. slicks for the TT. Still the handling was superior and cornering speed almost the same.

I expected the car to be good but i still got positively surprised and really impressed about how well the 75 managed the really bumpy track.

My conclusion about the suspension package is that it is a lot of money but you get what you pay for. I can truly recommend it.

By Maurizio on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 11:54 pm:

LOL,

I added a new rule to live by, last saturday. :-)
Never visit the ring without the intention to drive there! Very frustrating.


Counting the days till next years season...

By Mats on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 04:04 am:

51 laps?? :o

Are you the real Superman? Was that during the whole week (Still impressive) or during the weekend (borderline manic)?
Now I have to go. My friggin' 75 MUST be finished by spring. Must have some kind of benchmark. :)

/Mats

By (Micke) on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 05:11 am:

Saturday: 3 practice, 7 race
Sunday: 1 with Ron's TS
Monday 17 until the brakes gave in and had to go to get them replaced
Tuesday 23

Last 40 with the fattest car to fit the track (2200 kg!!) 295/25 ZR22, diesel and automagic - just what you want for a lot of fun ;-(
The navigation system was pretty impressive though. It really knows where to be :-)
Navi


Add a Message


This is a public posting area. If you do not have an account, enter your full name into the "Username" box and leave the "Password" box empty. Your e-mail address is optional.
Username:  
Password:
E-mail:
Post as "Anonymous"